Those pesky jacks

[Nottom]

Paradise 2/4

Preflop:
UTG folds and next guy raises (seems like a reasonable player). Next guy (pretty loose from what I can tell) cold-calls. I'm next with JJ and 3-bet. Rest fold and 1st 2 in call.

Flop: K-4-5 rainbow
1st bets, 2nd calls, I muck

Good lay down or weak-tight?

[travisand]

With a person calling between you and the bettor you are very likely beat so folding is most likely the proper thing to do. That being said I would probably call a single bet hoping to spike a J on the turn and fold when I didn't. It can't be that bad, you are getting something like 12-1 on the call and I am positive the people will definitely pay you off if you hit.

[vegthe1st]

Two callers with that flop, one of them being the preflop raiser, both who called 3 bets, you were definetly beat.

[Ed Miller]

That being said I would probably call a single bet hoping to spike a J on the turn and fold when I didn't. It can't be that bad, you are getting something like 12-1 on the call and I am positive the people will definitely pay you off if you hit.

This is poor advice. Spiking your set is a 22.5-1 shot. That means that you have to a) spike your set, b) get at least 5 BB of your opponents' money into the pot on the turn and river, and c) have your hand hold up 100% of the time just to break even on this call.

[Nottom]

Turn is another blank and 1stGuy check [img]/forums/images/icons/confused.gif[/img] 2ndguy bets, 1st calls.

River is Jack [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img] and both check. 1st shows TT and 2nd flips up A4s so my hand would have been good even without the river help.

I really considered raising the flop to see where I was but the caller scared me enough to fold. I think with a loosey being the caller I may have been able to discount his hand enough to raise the flop and see where 1stguy stood. The only real cold-calling hand (even from a loosey) I can really be behind here is a suited King (KQs or KJs maybe) which in reality is much less likely than a smaller PP or a suited ace which many loose players will call a flop bet with. I could then take a free card on the turn if I wanted and of course get to bet the J on the river.

[slavic]

This is tough, against 3 players this is a fold for me. Against 1 it's a reraise, the cold caller in the middle makes it difficult. Would he cold call middle A (at, a9, aj) or suited connectors or a likely dominated hand like KJ KQ? The bottom part of the board couldn't have hit him.

But with 2 calls your raise wouldn't knock 2 out, it would likely knock off the first better if he bluffed, but not the second. So I think you fold.

[elysium]

hi nottom
against a reasonable opponent and an over-caller, youre better off folding. there aren't many other hands that your opponent could be betting here. perhaps if a draw was on board, and your call close the action, seeing the turn is ok. here though youve got to ask, 'what is my opponent betting with?'.

[SoBeDude]

against a reasonable opponent and an over-caller, youre better off folding. there aren't many other hands that your opponent could be betting here. perhaps if a draw was on board, and your call close the action, seeing the turn is ok. here though youve got to ask, 'what is my opponent betting with?'.

So you think that at the 2-4 level, every UTG raise represents AA, KK, QQ, or AK?

How about TT (which is what he had) or even 99. Or perhaps AQ or AQs, or AJs?

And as far as callers, at 2-4 you can't put them on a hand very often. As it is, the caller is playing with A4 giving him bottom pair and an ace overcard, and a runner-runner gutshot.

So why did the PF raiser bet out when a big overcard to his TT falls, AND bet into an EP preflop 3-bettor? Because he was hoping to represent kings and get a better hand to fold, and he may have the best hand. And a bet here can give him information about where his hand stands while the betting is still cheap. Great bet I say!

But knowing all this is a possibility, and knowing there is a range of non-king hands that are legit EP raises, I think a raise here might be the right move.

If you 3-bet preflop, then raise the k-high rainbow flop what are you representing? AK, AA, KK. Who's going to call that bet? Mr. TT? unlikely. 3rd player is folding third pair here. And even if TT calls, he'll check to you on the turn when the non T falls, and he'll fold to your turn bet.

If EP 3-bets you on the flop then he's putting you to a real decision. Now if 3rd player calls your two and EP raises you, then it's a fold for sure. If 3rd player fold, and EP raises you, its probably a fold most of the time, but its player dependent.

But this is something I struggle with as well. I see the overcard hit, then I get bet in to, and I just KNOW I'm beat. But I'm trying to cure myself of that very bad habit.

-Scott