Going all-in pre-flop

DaNoob · #1 06-04-2003, 10:10 AM

First, the situation that has inspired this question in my mind, which I'm sure has been asked numerous times before. Talking with a buddy of mine about playing NLHE ring games, and he tells me that he will NEVER go all-in pre-flop. I can understand where he's coming from, but not sure I agree.

Then, last night happens. I sit down at a .25/.50 NLHE table last night just to watch a few orbits and maybe play a hand or two. It's almost bed time, and I'm looking to wind down before I go to sleep. I bring in the $50 max and watch several orbits go by, getting terrible cards, and when I do get a semi-decent hand (J9s, A9s) and try to limp, someone raises $5 pre-flop and I end up mucking. The game is loose aggressive and there seems to be a lot of bluffing going. People are turning over Q8o after betting pot+ into a coordinated board and getting everyone to fold... either to show off or try to lure more callers on big hands.

So, I'm sitting by patiently, getting a little frustrated at my lack of good cards and all of the pre-flop raises. Then, I look down to see JJ in the SB. EP raises $3, gets 2 callers in MP and LP and I call in the SB (should I have raised here?) Flop comes Axx and I'm bummed - not feeling as confident as I would like. So, I check, EP checks, MP checks, LP bets $5.75 into a $12 pot. I muck, thinking that someone must be sitting on Ax, EP & MP muck, LP flashes J7o for A-high. EP says something about folding Tens. At this point, I think I tilted slightly (not proud, but at least honest).

Less than an orbit later, I'm in LMP and get dealt QQ. EP raises to $5.75, EMP calls, and I have a decision to make. Not wanting to call and see an A or K fall on the flop, I decide to raise all-in ($40 raise). At this point, I think I'm likely the best hand and would be happy to walk with the pot as-is. Lots of people think about calling along the way, but only the original two betters call (which turned out to be 1 too many). Flop comes 889, turn is x, river brings an A. EP turns over AKo and walks with $150. Having tilted completely, I turned the computer off and tried to go to sleep. It took a while.

So, I know I played the hand poorly - but feel free to critique either or both - as I need to learn how to improve my NL game.

The main question I want to ask, however, is: when is it a good idea to go All-In pre-flop? AA or KK only? Or is it never a good idea in a NL ring game to do this before you've seen the first 3 cards?

Thanks in advance for your cents and cents...

Gronk · #2 06-04-2003, 01:17 PM

When you go all-in preflop with anything, the only hands that should call you(depending on your stack size of course) are KK and AA. When you go all-in with any other pocket pair, you should think of it as a semi-bluff. You're hoping to scoop the pot right there but if you get called, you figure to be behind with a chance to win. It's not a bad play to steal a small raised pot, but to try and quote S/S, you're not unlucky that you lost the hand. You're unlucky that you got called in the first place.

Often times, players will be tempted to call with as low as AK in which case you are a small favorite. You should avoid risking your entire stack when you're either a small favorite or a big dog.

And in regards as to when you should go all-in preflop, I would never hesitate to do it with aces. If someone raises you a good chunk of their stack and you have aces, I wouldn't think twice about tapping them. Kings are a different matter. You're a big dog to aces but you're a big favorite to AK. That's a more difficult situation to give advice in because the way you play them would depend on who is raising, how big their stack is, what their position is etc. If you end up going all-in with Kings and end up seeing aces don't feel to bad. You can't worry about the other player having the one hand that can beat you all the time.

Just my rambling 2 cents, hope it helped.

Greg (FossilMan) · #3 06-04-2003, 02:45 PM

Nothing wrong with your play. If the money were deeper, you might have raised the pot, which would've been about $25. However, since you've only got $40, why make it $25 and leave yourself with a $15 decision postflop? Just go all-in instead, as you did, and hope for a good result.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

DaNoob · #4 06-04-2003, 03:12 PM

Do you think it would have been better to call and then raise all-in on the flop if no overcards hit? I can't help but thinking that I would have been called bu a smaller PP and the AK would have folded on an 889 board.

DaNoob · #5 06-04-2003, 03:17 PM

Thanks for the advice and your 2 cents. When I pushed all-in, I was silently praying that noone called me.

So, how would you play this hand if you were in my shoes? Folding seems out of the question, so call/raise are the only two options.

Gronk · #6 06-04-2003, 05:18 PM

The way I see it, he's putting you to roughly 1/10th of your stack but you're getting 2 - 1 odds on your call because of the other caller. A call is definitely warranted. You've got great position in this hand. I think a bonus of just calling instead of reraising is that if a scary flop hits, you can make a play for the pot. You said the winner walked away with $150 so they both had you covered. A $5.75 bet to the original raiser might have only been a 5% or 3% bet depending on his stack so it doesn't necessarily have to be aces or kings. I'll raise 5% of my stack from EP from time to time with medium pocket pairs and suited connecters because it's a well disguised hand if it hits. That's enough of my argument for a call.

With a flop like 8 8 9, there's a good chance it missed both your opponents and if they do bet it probably won't be as much as the pot justifies betting. I've seen opponents with AK freeze in this situation and bluff but they don't bet nearly enough to be a threat. Often times, a decent sized bet or raise(and by decent size I mean bet at least what's already in the pot)in this situation will take down the pot for you, or at the very least get you a free card. And even if the free card doesn't help you, often times I'll find that if it doesn't help my opponent(s) they'll still check to me on the river letting you showdown for cheap. If you bet/raise a good amount on the flop and are reraised, then it's usually a good time to let your hand go.

Greg (FossilMan) · #7 06-04-2003, 06:07 PM

Of course, in hindsight, it would've been better THIS time to only call preflop and then bet the flop. On average, against the range of hands you expect these players to hold, and against the ways you expect them to play them, I suspect your highest EV play is to jam all-in preflop.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)