Getting 4 bet on the river!!!

[J.A.Sucker]

Playing a 15-30 game where there is not too much aggression before the flop, but can be after the flop, where a lot of people like to push draws and dubious pairs. 4 limpers to me, and I'm on the button. I have Kh3h. I limp, prepared to release if I missed. Blinds check. 6 way action.

Flop: Ks-Jc-9d. Checked to me, and I bet, thinking I have the best hand. I get called by BB (Andy, an older Asian guy) and two other dudes.

Turn: Kc. I'm pretty sure I have the best hand when it goes check, check, check, I bet, Andy calls, Dude calls, Dude folds.

River: 3c. Checked to me, I bet, Andy raises! Dude folds. I 3 bet. Andy 4 bets!!!

What do you do?

[elysium]

hi JA
you played it perfectly, but on the flop, with all those checks to you, there's a little room to check it down. not etched in stone and you would do it because over cards aren't a problem, and i don't have you leading until the turn.

you played it perfectly, and although it's illogical, you must finally consider KJ as andy's holding.

yea, when an opponent's actions out-weigh any particular read, you must place greater importance on those actions, even though they are diametrically opposite of your read.

you'll never have andy on KJ here until andy himself tells you with a 4 bet. make the crying call.

[Manzanita]

J.A.S.,

I just call here. With a pair on the board plus the way that you have played your hand, your 3-bet on the river says that you've got a full house. Yet Andy 4-bets you. I suspect that Andy flopped 2-pair (he either has KJ or K9) and slowplayed his hand. But there is enough uncertainty that you should call on the end.

-- Manzanita

[bruce]

I would raise one more time and if raised just call. My
guess is he flopped a straight and waited until the river
to make his move.

[elindauer]

You certainly can't fold. The only question is whether or not your opponent is aggressive enough to 4-bet, after slow playing the nut straight on the flop. He looks on in dismay as the top pair arrives on the flop, but, seeing a blank on the river, decides you may be willing to three bet with KQ or AK or KT and makes it 4 bets, as he knows you can't read him for a straight.

Although your opponent may have KJ, he would have been taking a lot of chances with so many cheap cards on the flop and turn. There are many cards that can come off to make a gutshot straight for an opponent who would have folded in the face of a raise.


I would just call, unless I thought my opponent was extremely aggressive, in which case I might consider another raise. My opponent would really have to be "extremely" aggressive for me to go this route.

[bad beetz]

I think it's really really really player dependent. I just call because I'm a puss most of the time.

If they guy was wearing an orange cap than he probably slow rolled K9 or KJ all the way.

[andyfox]

"I have Kh3h. I limp, prepared to release if I missed."

-An excellent idea.

"I get called by BB (Andy, an older Asian guy)"

-Couldn't have been me because A) while I am older than most, I'm not Asian; and B) I wouldn't call with any hand here: I'd have bet or I would check-raise.

"River: 3c. Checked to me, I bet, Andy raises! Dude folds. I 3 bet. Andy 4 bets!!!"

-I'd put him on an Ace-high flush and at least think about raising one more time. But then I'd probably rethink that I'm going to lose two bets if I'm beat. But then I'd probably think he might even have pocket nines. Then I'd think 3 bets is enough and just call. If he's got me beat he sure played his hand funny, but then I'd be happy I lost less because of it.

Hope your hand was good.

[cero_z]

Hi J.A.,
I think your hand's good more than half the time here (roughly), as "Andy" may have backed into the nut flush here, or slowplayed then overplayed a flopped straight, or he could have KJ, K9, or (very unlikely) JJ.
So the key in my mind is, "how good is Andy?" If he limped UTG with most of the hands I mentioned (Axs, QT, KJ, K9), he's not especially tight. If he put in 4 bets without Kings full, he's not very good. So, is he 1)only bad enough to limp light in EP, or 2)bad enough to go 4 bets on the end with Js full or less? If 1, call. If 2, 5-bet. If he were to 6-bet, you could fold as long as he's sane. But I'd expect him to make a crying call with the straight, flush, or 3s full.

[cero_z]

Also, what up with plagiarizing Ulysses' post, yo? Is this the scene at the end of the movie where we discover that you and he are ACTUALLY THE SAME PERSON???????

[Penguin]

Where I come from, 4 bets on the river is a very unusual event. That said, there are only 2 hands that beat you - KJ and K9.

Against most players I would call. It is more likely that they have one of the above hands than that they are overplaying so much. Especially since I can see how many of them would get to the river with the given betting action - i.e. they wanted to checkraise the flop, but when the bet came from their right, they didn't want to lose the whole field. Then they get the monster on the turn and slowplay.

Their are a few (5%?) players I would 5 bet because they typically overplay their hands.