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#1
10-19-2005, 11:44 AM
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JJ vs thinking multi-tabler (2+2er?)
party 10/20 full table
I open raise 3rd in with J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Fairly ABC (never seems to get out-of-line) multi-tabling non-rockish, maybe 21/9/1.5, villain calls in the BB 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] villain checks, I ??? and why edit to clarify for preflop action, sorry. 
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#2
10-19-2005, 11:49 AM
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Re: JJ vs thinking multi-tabler (2+2er?)
[ QUOTE ]
Fairly ABC (never seems to get out-of-line) multi-tabling non-rockish, maybe 21/9/1.5, villain completes in the BB [/ QUOTE ] Completes? [ QUOTE ] villain checks, I ??? and why [/ QUOTE ] Bet. You likely have the best hand and if he doesn't get out of line much this looks like a fairly easy hand to play.
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#3
10-19-2005, 12:30 PM
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Re: JJ vs thinking multi-tabler (2+2er?)
Bet.
What's BB have here? AJ, AT, small pair etc. That'd be my guess.
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#4
10-19-2005, 12:31 PM
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Re: JJ vs thinking multi-tabler (2+2er?)
[ QUOTE ]
Bet. You likely have the best hand and if he doesn't get out of line much this looks like a fairly easy hand to play. [/ QUOTE ] Joe: When we are c/red on the flop (even a fairly straight forward villain will do this with a variety of hands) you can't feel good about your prospects. By betting the flop, aren't we handing villain a golden opportunity to make a play on us, a play that can be interpreted as for value, as a semi-bluff or as an outright bluff. That is to say, after he c/r us, we still do not know where we are and he has the initiative. By checking behind haven't we just, in a sense, disarmed the enemy? By checking behind haven't we maintained the initiative? And, yes, by checking behind we may be giving up some value, but if there was value on the flop it ought still be there on the turn with the bad turn cards (A,Q) giving us additional river outs. The preceding is not meant to be argumentative but, rather, a display of what may turn out to be my deluded logic. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] Assuming you call the flop c/r, how do you proceed on a non-spade turn after villain bets out? Is a spade on the turn an auto fold? The above issues and all of the issues that arise when villain c/r the flop or c/c the flop seem to be avoidable by checking behind on the flop.
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#5
10-19-2005, 12:52 PM
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Re: JJ vs thinking multi-tabler (2+2er?)
Hi Mo-
I like this line and perhaps doing stuff like this will help me from losing money in smallish-medium sized pots. I think we fold outright to a spade on the turn if he bets it, and if he checks we bet out. In fact, I think we bet this no matter what comes out on the turn if it's checked to us. If he bets and no overcards to JJ come on the turn, I think I'm calling down. This works because by not betting the flop, he doesn't know if we're playing a monster spade or slowplaying AK or whether we missed a hand completely. He is unlikely to bet into us on the turn when a fourth spade comes unless he actually has the flush because he doesn't know whether we have any real strength. Agree?
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#6
10-19-2005, 01:14 PM
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Re: JJ vs thinking multi-tabler (2+2er?)
[ QUOTE ]
By checking behind haven't we just, in a sense, disarmed the enemy? [/ QUOTE ] Armed him heavily to just bet out w/anything on the turn. [ QUOTE ] Assuming you call the flop c/r, how do you proceed on a non-spade turn after villain bets out? [/ QUOTE ] Raise the turn and take a free show if you feel he will continue to bet a draw, HU. [ QUOTE ] Is a spade on the turn an auto fold? [/ QUOTE ] Auto-raise in most situations if your opponent is capable to laying down a K and seems he is.
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#7
10-19-2005, 01:18 PM
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Re: JJ vs thinking multi-tabler (2+2er?)
[ QUOTE ]
By checking behind haven't we just, in a sense, disarmed the enemy? By checking behind haven't we maintained the initiative? [/ QUOTE ] I'm completely confused by your logic. If I were villian, I would be betting any turn card. How have you maintained the initiative? Having said that, this is a 2BB pot. You don't want to invest another 2 or 3 BBs chasing a pot you can't win. If you're going to make a mistake by playing too passively (which I believe you're doing by checking the flop), the time to make such a mistake is when you don't lose much if you're wrong.
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#8
10-19-2005, 01:50 PM
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Re: JJ vs thinking multi-tabler (2+2er?)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] By checking behind haven't we just, in a sense, disarmed the enemy? By checking behind haven't we maintained the initiative? [/ QUOTE ] I'm completely confused by your logic. If I were villian, I would be betting any turn card. How have you maintained the initiative? Having said that, this is a 2BB pot. You don't want to invest another 2 or 3 BBs chasing a pot you can't win. If you're going to make a mistake by playing too passively (which I believe you're doing by checking the flop), the time to make such a mistake is when you don't lose much if you're wrong. [/ QUOTE ] You would not be the only one confused by my logic! [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] That said, are you saying to me that you can not interpret checking behind on the flop as a play that can/would/should be made by a strong hand? Since I assume that you can see how the flop check behind can be made with a K or AA or [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or TT or KK, how would you, as villain, interpret hero c/r of your betting out on any turn?
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#9
10-19-2005, 02:03 PM
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Re: JJ vs thinking multi-tabler (2+2er?)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] By checking behind haven't we just, in a sense, disarmed the enemy? [/ QUOTE ] Armed him heavily to just bet out w/anything on the turn. [ QUOTE ] Assuming you call the flop c/r, how do you proceed on a non-spade turn after villain bets out? [/ QUOTE ] Raise the turn and take a free show if you feel he will continue to bet a draw, HU. [ QUOTE ] Is a spade on the turn an auto fold? [/ QUOTE ] Auto-raise in most situations if your opponent is capable to laying down a K and seems he is. [/ QUOTE ] First, I have not met a 10/20 player that is laying down his K on the flop! So that idea never entered my mind; that is, and maybe this is where my problem is in understanding your logic... I see no fold equity on the flop. OK... here goes and assuming no fold equity on betting the flop then my flop bet, in order to be correct, must be for value. My logic says that whatever value I have on the flop will, similarly, be there on the turn. Would your line change if it were a given that you could not fold out a K on the flop or on a non- [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] turn?
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#10
10-19-2005, 02:11 PM
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Re: JJ vs thinking multi-tabler (2+2er?)
[ QUOTE ]
Hi Mo- I like this line and perhaps doing stuff like this will help me from losing money in smallish-medium sized pots. I think we fold outright to a spade on the turn if he bets it, and if he checks we bet out. In fact, I think we bet this no matter what comes out on the turn if it's checked to us. If he bets and no overcards to JJ come on the turn, I think I'm calling down. This works because by not betting the flop, he doesn't know if we're playing a monster spade or slowplaying AK or whether we missed a hand completely. He is unlikely to bet into us on the turn when a fourth spade comes unless he actually has the flush because he doesn't know whether we have any real strength. Agree? [/ QUOTE ] This was precisely my thinking. Though this thinking is anathema to general 2+2 teaching, methinks. Heretical, maybe! Wrong, maybe! Right, maybe?
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