KQo on the button

[Diplomat]

I'm in a typical loose agressive online 10-20 game, friday night (yes, just this last hour!)

I have KQo on the button. Three middle and late position players limp to me. The small blind calls and the big blind checks.

Flop is K [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] 2 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] . Checked to me, I bet, all call. What does a blank look like?

Turn is the 2 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] . The Small blind bets. The big blind calls, folded to me. I raise, both call.

River is a red seven. Small blind bets, big blind folds. I call.

Comments?

[mike l.]

im very very certain sb has a 2. the time to lay down your hand is on the turn. i raise this turn like you and they always bet into me on the river again just like he did and i always pay them off and it's intermediate, not advanced hold em we're talking here. let's stop being intermediate. let's save $60 and move onto the next hand.

[ACPlayer]

Against most players a river fold is in order.

You have raised on the turn to stop river bluffs, you are not being bluffed - which includes any one pair type hands.

Against a nut or overly aggressive type, I would just call down.

Against a player who can get into your head and is countereing your bluff stopping play, well, thats poker.

[elysium]

hi diplomat
it's close, but you have a pre-flop raise. those SB really like to lean into your button position with their KQ or AJ. often these SB use position to diminish the value of your button cards. their KQ dominatesin' yourn.

and that's what they have those SB's.

when you have the exact same holding as the SB, and he will joust you menacingly with it hampering your position, there is something you can do. but diplomat you only have one opportunity to do it. once you screw up, and let that guy in, even a double screw up that would normally equal a correction, will not recover your LP status after he menacingly checks round after round after round.

we need to do something now.

let's see, position, position,....,we're pre-flop right? he's acting after you act, right? ok....i don't smoke but i need to light a cigarette here because diplomat, we're entering the twilight zone.

meet diplomat, a poker player trapped between time and spacial demention; the year, 2003....meet elysium, paid by phillip morris, instructing diplomat about the universe; come.

elysium: (to marlboro country); diplomat, on the pre-flop the SB is acting after you act. but when you call after a few passive limpers before you, the doodie dootoo doodie dootoo gets louder and louder. i agree, gets louder. maybe diplomat, just maybe it's because the SB has dimentional position over you on the pre-flop, but NOT relative position. BUT, on all rounds after the pre-flop, you will have dimentional position, but the SB will have relative position. and often the relative position is the dominate position, especially when you are acting after a few passive limpers. relative position, dimentional position, what's it all mean?

eh, i have to do some sublimination for our sponcers diplomat: (puff.....*good sex*)

ok,....gee i could use a good smoke. wait i don't smoke....what the...? anyway diplomat, this position thingie, here in the zone, on the first round, you're acting before the SB acts, that's true. but you have relative position!! what you say? YES! how? well let's see just how.

you both have the same hands, but he will use his relative position on the later rounds to dominate your hand. but what can you do on the first round? he's acting after you. well, if you raise, you will use his dimentional position on all the remaining rounds to influence his decision on the pre-flop, even though he has the current better dimentional position, and you the weaker dimentional position right now. your raise forces him to make a decision that will tie him to the 'first to act' post for the rest of the game. and yes i hear you diplomat, loud and clear. your saying, 'but elysium, am i not also tieing him to the post with the best relative position? shouldn't he call my raise?' and that's where we turn the tables on the SB.

your raise now puts the SB in first position, and puts you into relative LP position. your raise has recaptured the best position status, even though you are on the button and this is the pre-flop. and now the SB folds his KQ or AJ as though he were facing an UTG raiser who also has the best position on the table, and more information too. his catastrophic relative position in the zone, the twilight zone, forces him to fold, and gives you command of the table. your raise will also stop the UTG limper from checking to you, but if he does, you've got him because he would never offer a free-card to a button raiser unless he needed one himself. his check isn't a check to gain relative position. but you only have the one opportunity diplomat. you must raise out the SB on the pre-flop.

[Diplomat]

Elysium,

you never fail to boggle me. Whatever you were smoking in this post, well, you can email me about how to get some.

I'm not sure if I should have raised pre-flop; there were three limpers to me, and I had unsuited high cards. I think HFAP recommends just calling here (Mason, help?). My screwup began on the turn.

-Diplomat

[Diplomat]

Hi Mike,

yes, exactly. As soon as I hit the raise button, I thought to myself:

"I am raising with the second best hand, with two outs in a medium-sized pot. Why am I raising? What am I doing?"

The river call was obviously out of desperation.

Beginner move, beginner mistake. Sigh.

-Diplomat

[elysium]

hi diplomat
pre-flop diplomat, you must raise to drive out the blinds.

[LotusX]

as crazy as his post is, i actually agree he might have the same hand or a slightly worse kicker.

why does he keep bettinginto you? because he knows you dont have AK that's why. You didn't raise preflop remember?


The turn raise is probably not the best play but once you've made it you should call the river.

[mike l.]

"you are on the button and this is the pre-flop. and now the SB folds his KQ or AJ"

yep youre definitely smoking something.

[Diplomat]

Hi Elysium,

this argument is the only reason I'd consider raising from this position with this hand. Everything else points to call, and if the game is really tough, fold.

The blinds are coming along anyway, and are getting the right price to draw if I raise pre-flop they catch a piece of the flop. By not raising they will be making mistakes by continuing if we both catch a piece.

No average 10-20 player is folding AJ or KQ in the blinds for a single raise. I've never met such a player. And most will call with anything but absolute crap.

-Diplomat