playing all wrong

[Dominic]

a little background:

okay...I'm a 10/20 and 20/40 B&M player who over the last 3 years, is a winning player. I'm not a pro, just a player who does a little better than average; someone with a passion for poker and the desire to get better.

Last year, I made a living playing the $50 and $100 SNGs on UB. Incredibly stressful - I do not want poker as my only form of income again. But I do want to supplement it - greatly.

For the last few months, I've been trying the limit ring games on various sites. And getting hammered. I've read all the books - SSHE,etc....I understand it, I practice it...

but I'm still getting hammered. We're talking 3-6 and 5-10. Even though I play much bigger games live, I refuse to try anything bigger until I WIN my way up.

So...I study my Pokertracker stats....

VPIP - 21%
PFA - 9.5%
W$SD - 54%

These aren't horrible stats, right? And yet I'm down over 2BBs/100 over 25,000 hands.

I've really studied my on-line game and have come to the conclusion that I'm playing too aggressively when the flop misses me, thinking I can move someone off of their hand.

In other words, I'm playing like it's a middle-limit game.

Is SSHE really only about pushing your edge - when you have an edge - and just laying down hands instead of making a play at the pot?

I mean, I understand SSHE's examples of when to semi-bluff, protect your hand, etc...and I do all that...but I'm also bluffing a lot.

Is this my downfall?

[BaronVonCP]

yes

[partygirluk]

25,000 hands isnt that much. You could easily be a winning player. I find bluffing at those stakes to be of limited use. Most people won't fold a pair, and often not A high. Pick your targets carefully. Cutting down on semi bluffs has been a recent change to my game which I think has helped me a lot. If you raise someone on a draw heavy board they automatically put you on the draw and call down with anything. Bluff less.

[Harv72b]

You're playing a little too loose, assuming you're sitting in full ring games. 21% is only +EV if you're a very good postflop player, and few of us qualify for that.

What you have to understand is that bluffing is much more prevalent in the online limit game than it is in B&M play. As a result, it works less often...your opponents have seen the bluffs over & over again, and won't often fold unless it's painfully obvious that they're beaten. There are exceptions, of course...if you find a particularly weak/tight opponent and you have a spotless table image, you can try pushing him off some hands. Just don't try it often.

You also (obviously) have to take the size of the pot into account--the bigger the pot, the less likely a bluff is to work.

BTW, this...

[ QUOTE ]
Even though I play much bigger games live, I refuse to try anything bigger until I WIN my way up.

[/ QUOTE ]

...is the perfect path to take.

[RatFink]

Experiment a few sessions where you don't try to move anyone off a pot, but just push your edges. Use the bluffing skills to get you to a showdown cheaper rather than avoiding one.

[SackUp]

Bluffing too much was (is) one of my biggest downfalls as it is for many players trying to be TAGs. You get in the mode of thinking that checking is just being weak and that you have left TAG mode and become a weak tighty.

It is hard to find a balance of knowing when to bluff/semi-bluff and when you just need to take a free card and be happy. Or even c/f sometimes. I have found it becomes a lot easier once you change your mindset from playing a certain style to just playing to win. I'm not sure if that sentence makes sense, but the point is that you have to learn to trust your reads and hand reading skills. This means knowing when you are beat and knowing when a bluff/semi-bluff just is not going to work. You can't bet just to bet b/c you think that is what an aggressive player would do.

One thing that helped me a lot was looking at the tecture of the board before I bluff/semi-bluff. Before I would just auto bet the flop and turn regardless of the structure of the board. I thought I needed to be aggressive with my AK b/c I thought I would just run people over. Often you can and often you will, however, it often depends on the player you are against and more importantly the structure of the board - are they likely to have a piece?

Another problem I had with being aggressive was not being able to b/f a hand after a bluff/semi-bluff. It is ok to fold hands that are not winners and are drawing slim. Again I was in the mindset that I cannot be so weak.

Maybe some of these things do not apply, but these were a couple of areas that I struggled with due to my need for aggression.

Make sure to pick your spots for aggression. Look at the tecture of the board and the size of the pot. What are you trying to take down and what is the chance that you actually will?

Keep at it and post hands you are confused with.

[SackUp]

Also, I think you might want to lower your VPIP a little but raise your preflop aggression some. Burn off some of the aggression preflop. It helps save a lot of your postflop aggression and make it mean something. Also you can steal and get HU more often which we have to love most of the time [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Are you playing 6max or full ring? It sounds like 6max might be more your style if you are able to loosen up a little and can handle the swings. If you do try the 6max I highly recommend the games on Party to start.

Your stats are fine but I think you could play a few percentage points (VPIP) tighter. ring game SSHE to me is about patience, playing straightforward and getting value on your good hands and draws, and not letting all the beats get to you. Give up on most of your bluffs on the turn, but compensate for their looseness by making thinner value bets. In the good games most pots will be multiway and you definitely don't want to be bluffing much in those.

Since you desire to get better, you will probably want to move up as soon as you can because you won't learn very much that is applicable to the higher limits and plus it seems you already do well at the middle limits anyway. I feel that in the past I spent too much time playing ring game low limit holdem and that my rate of improvement was plateau-ing; it wasn't until I forced myself to move up and play shorthanded that I felt myself learning new things again.