Gambling and morality

[Inthacup]

I know this is not a fun topic, but it's something I'm interested in at the moment and would like some input.

What is it that makes gambling immoral? The act of wagering itself? It's ability to become addictive? It's basis on greed? It's ability to interfere/overtake other aspects of your life?

Public opinion views gambling as a "vice". Subsequently, poker is seen as a vice as well. I honestly think poker is a different form of gambling than any other game in a casino(with it's closest relative being BJ). The amount of skill involved is far greater than other casino games. However, the same argument can be made for sports betting. Input on this topic is greatly appreciated. Thanks!

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

You asked for it.

Gambling is not immoral. Cheating is. Voluntarily wagering a portion of your own income is a personal choice that does not involve fraud or the initiation of force, either physical violence, or threat thereof, or any other form of coercion on the other participants.

Greed is an overused word. There is nothing wrong with using ones abilities to gain wealth (again, the disclaimers on fraud and violence apply).

I could go on a long and rambling rant here, but I wont. Whoever disagrees with the gist of this post is welcome to counter it, and I'll be happy to engage in a lively debate. [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

[J.R.]

Gambling is immoral beacuse it:
1) keeps people out of church
2) causes people to question their blind faith in a benevolent and omnipotent "god"
3) encourages greed, envy and jealousy which is bad for the people but good for organized religion
4) takes money from the church coffers and puts it into the casinos coffers, so it evinces a transfer of power and changes the status quo
5) is at odds with the piety and self-restraint a "moral" person lives their life by
6) Bill Bennet said so
7) it can be fun, and pleasure is the antithesis of morality
8) just like alcohol, it can have negative effects in extreme cases, and moralists like to draw illogical conclusions and make improper inferences based on inadequate data pools
9) your money would be better spent "invested" in the capital markets where it can "safely" be saved (satire)
10) it is a non-productive transfer of wealth that uses resources inefficiently and is therefore eschewed by economic theorists who reject the benefits of leisure (at least for the blue collar working classes)
11) at its very nature, gambling implicates an edge, so there is the notion fo the exploitation of a sucker (which would never happen in a capitalistic economy such as ours where transactions are often predicated on a common and salient feature: dramatic asymetries of information)

just some off the cuff thoughts, and yes I was 1) forced to go to church and 2) take econ classes as a kid

[Al Schoonmaker]

This subject is closely related to one of my recent articles in Cardplayer, "Nobody understands us." You can read it at cardplayer.com. It laments the fact that we are seen as degenerate gamblers, that people don't understand that poker is a game of skill, and other issues you covered here.
That article was stimulated in part by posts on this forum about parents' and wives' reactions to playing poker. In fact, it quotes two posts.
I'd be interested in any reactions to it.
Regards,
Al

[Softrock]

Personally, I don't believe gambling is immoral. Some will argue (and many believe blindly and don't even realize it so they wouldn't even argue) that anything that can be done to excess and become destructive to self, loved ones, family etc is immoral. Thus, alcohol and drugs are immoral etc. But, if you follow this to its logical conclusion then daytime TV is immoral, fast food is immoral, exercise is immoral (ie. some will do it to such an excess that they'll neglect their family). Hell, that means work is immoral - how many families are destroyed by one member being a workaholic compared to the number of families destryed by a compulsive gambler?

When something is hurtful or destructive to others then I think we can consider it immoral. However, this would include almost anything when done to excess - so excess may be immoral but I don't think gambling is.

[jasonHoldEm]

Link to Dr. Schoonmaker's Article at CardPlayer

Quote: "Poker players talk a lot about the long term, but we can be extremely shortsighted."

A very excellent point indeed. There is a need for us to make a concerted effort to change the image of poker, because the image that many people have (i.e. degenerate gamblers) is wrong. With the popularity of the WPT and the growth of internet cardrooms we have the unique possiblity to improve the image of our sport. Imagine the possibility of nationwide legality of poker and internet poker. It would create a HUGE increase in the popularity of poker.

I really like Dr. Schoonmaker's points on how to improve our image. I especially like the point about inforcing a strict behavior code. We've all heard stories about fights breaking out and the persons involved being given a slap on the wrist. I think we should do our best to speak out (to cardroom managers, etc) that this behavior will not be tolerated and be willing to take our business elsewhere if it continues.

Along the same lines are the tantrums of Phil Hellmuth (and others, Phil is just the most visible). I like Phil as a player, but I think on the whole he is bad for poker (especailly now that we are getting more of the public's attention). A more rigid behavior code would help prevent his ridiculous outbursts and help to improve the way "outsiders" look at us.

Jan Fisher has also written several articles on the topic of cardroom behavior and poker ethics (these are the earlier "Poker 101" articles circa May-July 2001). Check them out.

peace,
jHE

[pauly2x]

I think it's just a leftover part of the nation's roots, the protestant work ethic (horray for puritans!); the idea that God takes care of those that work hard, provide for their families, save money and give to their church. That's a very clean and respectable way to go through life. Obviously some of us choose to go a different route, even showing variance along those lines in the way we play poker.

For my two cents, I could care less how other people run their lives. I was walking around one of the boats last night, and I have to admit I was taken aback by some of the slot jockeys playing three machines at once, a woman with three casino players cards on a chain around her neck, neatly fed into each machine. She had a nice rythm, where she could let one machine fly right after the reels would stop spinning on another. I'm always taken aback how people (other than in the poker room where they're always sizing you up) won't even recognize your presence in a casino, most of them blindly meandering between aisles of slots. It's times like that when I realize that if I ever reach the point of *needing* to feel chips between my fingers, be blinded by flashing slots or mesmorized by the spin of the roulette wheel... that's when I need to start going to church again. Either that or stop wandering into other parts of the casino while waiting for a hold 'em seat. [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Seems we share some of the same ideas / ideals. I too was forced to go to church, take economics, live in hellville texas, etc. So I can easily see where you're coming from.

Notice that "society" doesn't view gambling / poker as immoral, a PORTION of society, namely the "right wingers" views it as immoral. If society as a whole really thought it was immoral, well, there would not be so darn many casinos, with so darn many paying customers. The proof is in the pudding.

Although at times there is trouble associated with gamblin', religious types hype up rare instances and try to use them as proof for the immorality of "us sinners." But then you know that heresay, speculation, innuendo, conjecture, passages from Dr. Joyce's sermons, and quotes from the "good book" are all considered hardcore evidence from these people. So let them judge us for our heresy and immorality and debotchery. We don't have to listen to them while we're at the casino.

al

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

This isn't eactly a disagreement, but don't put too much faith in those "left-wingers" either. They may not beat the bible and call you a sinner, but they'll sure do their best to try to tax your gambling earnings to death. Anybody who thinks the political left isn't just as moralistic as the political right is delusional. What you have here is the conumndrum of being caught between what Ayn Rand calls "the mystics religion and the mystics of the state." Both think you should kowtow to a higher authority. They just disagree on what that higher authority.

That being said, I'm a registered, card-carrying Libertarian. I will occaisionally vote for a Republican, but I'd cut off my $^%$ before I'd vote for a Democrat.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

True about the left wingers being as radical as the right wingers. People just need to be cool and stop acting like one-winged jerks, and we'd all be a lot happier.

libertarian is cool. Good. I'm writing it down now. Kurn is good.

al