Short-handed 20-40 w/kill

[PokerPrince]

Moderately tough, 5 player game. This hand is between me and a tightish, tricky player. The whole night we had been running into each other. Every time he would raise preflop, I would always be holding a monster and reraise, only to meet him at the river and disappoint him. I was getting on his nerves greatly as his chips were finding their way onto my stack, always to an AA or KK 3-bet.

I had just won a large pot and had to post a $40 kill in the BB. Folded to him on Button and he raises, SB folds, I look down and see Q [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] J [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] and decide to 3-bet. I figured this would put fear into him as every previous reraise from me meant certain doom to a powerhouse. To my detriment, he 4-bets and I call. My guess was that this was a very large pocket pair he held.

Flop- 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] 8 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img]

Well I hold two overcards that I am almost sure are no good, a gutshot to the nut straight, and backdoor clubs. I figure with that cooridinated flop, I can make a move and possibly push him off a hand . I check, he bets, I raise. He calls.

Turn- 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] 8 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img]

Couldn't ask for a better card. Nut straight and straight flush redraw. This is where the hand gets interesting and I would like some thoughts. I check, figuring if I bet he will fold his overpair but, if checked through, call a river bet. My goal was to earn an extra bet I didn't think I could get if I bet that scary turn card.

Anyways, HE bets the turn after I check to him. I decide to checkraise. He folds his KK face up and makes a few distastful comments. Would a better plan be to check/call the turn, and then bet out on the river? OR do as I did and checkraise the turn? I found it very strange that he bet the turn, as it with that board, his overpair isn't looking too good. The reason I decided to checkraise the turn was the fact that if he did hold a set, unlikely with that board, he would be charged the maximum to hit his 10 outs. Looking back I think with my analysis of his play and what I thought he held, simply calling the turn and betting out on the river was the best play. What do you think?

PokerPrince

[frankenstien]

The reason I decided to checkraise the turn was the fact that if he did hold a set, unlikely with that board
I think you answered your own question.

[elysium]

hi poker
this hand brings up something that i've never considered before; what happens when the board is consecutive AND gives you an inside straight draw to the nut straight.

believe it or not, your hand has a nasty symptom of a one card draw; that being the horrifying board on completion. eh, it doesn't happen often; without the seven you hold a very reasonable hand, but the seven here hurts you badly enough to warrant a check-fold on the flop. believe it or not. this is a very interesting post poker. change the seven to a 2 through 6, and you have a clear check-call. you know, this hand exposes some fairly negative aspects of QJs type hands. we're talking here about KQs, QJs, and JTs. in some ways, there is an advantage having JTs or T9s. if you bet strongly out of the blind pre-flop, the pre-flop 4 bettor won't be so horrified by a 765 board when an 8 lands. this gives T9s tremendous implied value. i've never considered that before. i'm against your pre-flop reraise. very bad poker, awful. but here; let's say you knew that the flop would land 789; an inside draw to the nuts would normally make your early strength ok-ish. but not this inside draw. this one doesn't ok your reraise.

now, reraise incorrectly again, only this time do so with T9s. let the flop be 765. this flop mollifies your incorrect pre-flop raise and makes it ok-ish. an 8 will not kill the action and you can check-call the flop. this is not the case with your current hand. you must check-fold the flop here. this is a great post poker. i've never considered this before.

[Philuva]

I like the check-raise on the turn. He might call or even 3-bet you with JJ or QQ. I know a lot of players who would still call you down with AA or KK.

He made a good read and folded. Oh well. I am not so sure that if you just call his turn bet, he is going to call your river bet. In fact, if you just called the turn bet, I would go for a check-raise on the river rather than betting out.

[Diplomat]

Hey Prince,

after I thought for a while about E's post -- and properly filtered it -- I think he makes an interesting point. The problem with making your hand on the turn is that it completes a one-card straight, and it is not unreasonable to put you on a straight considering your pre-flop play (JJ, AJs, or a set of tens, nines, what have you). Against a tight opponent who usually believes you when you act, a checkraise cannot be correct on the turn. I'm surprized he bet the turn at all.

Considering that, I agree with you that a check-call, then bet out on the river (with luck the river would be a king...) is probably your best play. If you are fairly sure he will call your checkraise and your river bet, then a checkraise is fine. But I think most decent, tight players will fold in this spot to a checkraise. He has to put you on exactly QQ or KK to continue.

-Diplomat

[jace]

Hey Prince,

I understand your analysis and actually think you played it fine. On the turn, your opponent could have had JJ, TT, or maybe even AJ, and he would have to pay you off on the river and you would gain an extra bet or two. So I think checkraising his turn bet is fine.

I also think that betting out on the turn with your nut straight can't be that bad either unless you're almost 100% sure he is a good enough player to fold KK headsup when facing a very coordinated and scary board.

What really surprises me though is the way your opponent played the hand. I certainly would have reraised you on the flop with KK. However, on the turn when the one card straight hits, I would have checked after you checked, and then be ok with just calling one bet on the river. But he did have the discipline to fold when you raised, so I guess I gotta give him some credit for that play.

[J.A.Sucker]

You're playing shorthanded against a uber-tricky guy, who's on the button and you have an OK hand only. Also, you don't have to force out anybody else, since it's already headsup. If it were the SB, then raising makes more sense. In the BB, just call. You're not going to "put fear into him" because he has a better hand and position on you. This is a bogus excuse to raise when you know you shouldn't, IMO.

The flop is good but not great for you, since you have no pair. He's stealing with a wide range of hands, but he still has position and likely a better hand than Q-hi, though you do have 4 big outs. The problem with this board is that if you hit a Q or a J on the turn, things aren't all that rosy for you, but you are still going to the river. Checkraising as you did was fine, though I like to bet out, and then 3 bet here, but this may be a matter of preference.

The turn, I'd bet out automatically after 3 betting and see what happens. As you did it, I'd check-call and bet the river, because he's just gonna fold most hands on the turn here, unless he has 2 pair, a set, or picked up a flush draw himself.

As always, these are just my opinions, but I'm Just Another Sucker.

[punkass]

If I had the KK, I would bet the turn and fold to the raise like he did. You can't check it behind and give you a draw (he may think you had a pair and were drawing for two pair or trips). It's one of those situations where you bet in case you're winning, but know for sure you're losing if raised.

Knowing that, I may check and call on the turn to him, but that again seems fishy to me. If I were him, I wouldn't call a river bet, and wouldn't bet it either. So you didn't lose anything by raising IMO on the turn. In fact, if he did have a set, then you gained.

I would play it like you did.

But I'm definitely nothing to measure next to.

Just my half cent.

[astroglide]

i would have bet, called a raise back, and bet out again on the river

bet/bet looks like more of a bluff attempt and i think you'd be more likely to get 2 bets that way than you would an overpair paying off a checkraise