How should I have played this hand?

Justaloser · #1 05-21-2003, 08:57 PM

Very early in tourney 25\50 most players have 10k chips (or thereabouts)

UTG I get JJ. I called. Several other limpers. Key one was MP.

Flop is JQ4, Q 4 of spades. I have no spades.

I raised 750. Get a caller.

Turn is a spade. I know that I'm screwed. He checks, I check.

River is a fourth spade. He bets 3k. I fold. He shows 8s3s.

I'm frustrated because I don't know what I could have done to get him off that hand, short of going all-in. And I lose way too many allins....

snowman · #2 05-21-2003, 09:05 PM

why didn't you raise 3x bb before the flop? would he call before the flop with 83s?

Justaloser · #3 05-21-2003, 09:12 PM

I know this will sound stupid, but I'm gonna ask anyway.

So you should raise UTG with JJ? I know it's a good hand, but thought that it was not a good position for it to raise.

schroedinger · #4 05-21-2003, 09:44 PM

To me it depends. If you raise AND:

1) You get a caller or two, you are happy.

2) If it rolls around to LP or the blinds, and out comes a big raise, you almost have to lay it down, even though it is the sort of play some people will make without even looking at their cards. Now if LP's and the blinds are unimaginative types, fine. If not, I dunno -- just call and sometimes your PPs get beat even when you catch a set. That's why you make a profit on these hands, 'cause people like to play drawers and underpairs and crap. My idea of poker heaven is when no one ever catches up. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] With a bunch of callers, LPs and the blinds have to play a little more honestly.

So yes, the raise will get rid of 83s, but it will create a whole new set of problems.

Jon Matthews · #5 05-21-2003, 09:58 PM

You gotta either raise or fold. Here 3-4xBB won't hurt your stack but it will get rid of 8-3s etc. If you must limp then fold on the flop if there is an overcard.

It's more pertinent to get rid of such cards to protect your hand with a flop such as 2-3-8 rainbow to stop you being beaten by 2 pair.

maplepig · #6 05-22-2003, 02:58 AM

why do you want to get rid of him? he's the perfect fish that you want him in and take his chips. calling 750 on a flush draw on flop, bet 3k on a 4 flush board holding 8 high. He will probably bet as much when the board pairs, maybe he will even call your reraise allin and you end up with 20k if the board pairs. What if you hold J of spade?
If you held AA and went allin, a guy called you with 44 and won the pot, you should be happy rather than annoyed. this is similar.

King_J · #7 05-22-2003, 04:08 AM

"If you held AA and went allin, a guy called you with 44 and won the pot, you should be happy rather than annoyed. this is similar. "

I would be annoyed. I play to win money, not to lose. When I win money, I´m happy. When I lose, I´m annoyed. I thought that was normal.

maplepig · #8 05-22-2003, 05:51 AM

When I know I have a winning strategy, I am happy. When I know I can't beat the game, I feel bad, regardless if I win this game or not. I thought this is normal. There are countless times that I won the game, but still didn't feel good, because I made several mistakes during my play.

ohkanada · #9 05-22-2003, 09:17 AM

Heres a crazy idea. Raise with JJ pre-flop.

Ken Poklitar

cferejohn · #10 05-22-2003, 02:20 PM

If you limp, you are just hoping to flop trips. Well and good, but you've just turned JJ into 66 and its better than that. In no-limit a 3-4xBB raise will often get you heads up, which is where you really want to be with JJ. I raise with JJ UTG every day and twice on sunday. Sure if someone comes over the top with a big raise I have to fold, but I am pretty sure that someone is only going to come over top of an UTG pre-flop raiser with something I'd rather not play against anyway.

Imagine this, you limp UTG with JJ, there are a few callers, then a LP player makes it 6x the BB or so. You *could* be up against AA/KK/QQ/AK, but you could also be up against AJ, TT, or even 99 and the person just wants to get it heads up against a weak seeming field. So lets say you call and end up heads up with this person and the flop comes rags. You bet the pot, he comes over the top all-in. Now what? I would have an awfly hard time calling this. In this case your JJ has lost a lot more against a probable AA/KK/QQ than it would have if you had raised UTG and been reraised and just laid it down.

Of course, there are some times when you sense weakness/insanity and and you will go right back at the raiser, but for the most part you now have a much much better idea of what his hand is and its costing you less to get that information.