Common situation

Robb · #1 10-05-2005, 10:36 AM

What determines when you should raise to clean up your outs and when you should call to keep others in? I just kind of go by feel: draw strength, the drawed pair strength, how likely my raise is to knock out players, the board obviously, etc. Thoughts on flop raise?

Both EP players seemed loose from the little I watched the game... I thought about waiting until the blinds rolled around but a player just left and I didn't want EP's to leave next hand on their blinds if another player got up...so I posted in the Hijack. Notes on CO poster: LA preflop, tricky post. Nothing on other players.

Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (9 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $30. CO posts a blind of $30.
2 ep limpers, Button raises, BB calls, the rest call.

Flop: (12.50 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (7 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 folds and I raise.

#2 10-05-2005, 11:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
What determines when you should raise to clean up your outs and when you should call to keep others in? I just kind of go by feel: draw strength, the drawed pair strength, how likely my raise is to knock out players, the board obviously, etc. Thoughts on flop raise?

Both EP players seemed loose from the little I watched the game... I thought about waiting until the blinds rolled around but a player just left and I didn't want EP's to leave next hand on their blinds if another player got up...so I posted in the Hijack. Notes on CO poster: LA preflop, tricky post. Nothing on other players.

Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (9 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $30. CO posts a blind of $30.
2 ep limpers, Button raises, BB calls, the rest call.

Flop: (12.50 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (7 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 folds and I raise.

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A flop raise looks right to me, the pot is big and forcing out a better jack is worth it, if the raiser has KQ,AQ, or AK, your flop raise still is worth it since if you hit your jack on the turn you are less likely to get rivered if the raiser folds the flop.

ihardlyknowher · #3 10-05-2005, 12:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What determines when you should raise to clean up your outs and when you should call to keep others in? I just kind of go by feel: draw strength, the drawed pair strength, how likely my raise is to knock out players, the board obviously, etc. Thoughts on flop raise?

Both EP players seemed loose from the little I watched the game... I thought about waiting until the blinds rolled around but a player just left and I didn't want EP's to leave next hand on their blinds if another player got up...so I posted in the Hijack. Notes on CO poster: LA preflop, tricky post. Nothing on other players.

Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (9 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $30. CO posts a blind of $30.
2 ep limpers, Button raises, BB calls, the rest call.

Flop: (12.50 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (7 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 folds and I raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have an OESD on a rainbow flop, and hand with pretty good implied odds, with 7 players in and you are trying to shut out the field? I don't get it.

elindauer · #4 10-05-2005, 12:19 PM

Hi Robb,

Tough decision. First, I think you are correct to at least consider raising and that this is a case where you have a legitimate argument for trying to clean up outs. There are reasonable hands that could be out (QJ, KJ, AJ), and they may fold. Even better, you don't lose much on your raise, as you have value if they call, but pick up position and perhaps a free card if they don't.

Well, I started that paragraph undecided, but now that I've had more time to think, I like a raise. The downside is that you are shutting out the field with a strong draw to the nuts. The upside of winning with 1 pair is worth it though, I think.

Good luck.
Eric

DeeJ · #5 10-05-2005, 12:25 PM

I lay real low here and call. If you hit your oesd you have the nuts and maybe can get someone else raising the pot up when you have the nuts eg if the Q or 7 hits. Keep them in, don't shut them out. You only have Jack high at the moment.

I guess this is a 'traditional' response [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

#6 10-05-2005, 12:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I lay real low here and call. If you hit your oesd you have the nuts and maybe can get someone else raising the pot up when you have the nuts eg if the Q or 7 hits. Keep them in, don't shut them out. You only have Jack high at the moment.

I guess this is a 'traditional' response [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]
I would agree with this response if the pot wasnt so large, forcing a better jack to fold is worth raising in my opinion, plus this pot is big enough that many people will call the heros raise anyways and if 3 or more opponents still see the turn the hero is making money off this raise. And like i said in my original post, forcing AK,AQ,KQ to fold still has some value in the large pot also.

Robb · #7 10-05-2005, 12:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I lay real low here and call. If you hit your oesd you have the nuts and maybe can get someone else raising the pot up when you have the nuts eg if the Q or 7 hits. Keep them in, don't shut them out. You only have Jack high at the moment.

I guess this is a 'traditional' response [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I usually do as well. This just seemed like the right spot for a raise. Though it sounds weird to say: I'm wondering if it doesn't matter what I do (as long as I don't fold) because it really depends on my opponents cards...which are completely unknown because of the preflop action. You have: "It's a big pot do all you can to win. Raise and clean up your outs". But you also have: "Lots of players, keep as many in since you have draw equity." If Button has AJ and won't call two cold I think a raise may be good. If he has an overpair it's bad because he 3 bets which loses all my customers.

Robb · #8 10-05-2005, 12:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What determines when you should raise to clean up your outs and when you should call to keep others in? I just kind of go by feel: draw strength, the drawed pair strength, how likely my raise is to knock out players, the board obviously, etc. Thoughts on flop raise?

Both EP players seemed loose from the little I watched the game... I thought about waiting until the blinds rolled around but a player just left and I didn't want EP's to leave next hand on their blinds if another player got up...so I posted in the Hijack. Notes on CO poster: LA preflop, tricky post. Nothing on other players.

Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (9 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $30. CO posts a blind of $30.
2 ep limpers, Button raises, BB calls, the rest call.

Flop: (12.50 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (7 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 folds and I raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have an OESD on a rainbow flop, and hand with pretty good implied odds, with 7 players in and you are trying to shut out the field? I don't get it.

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Pretty much for the reasons Westley and elindauer stated.

mc1023 · #9 10-05-2005, 12:47 PM

what are your plans if everyone folds around to UTG+1 who calls and the turn is a blank?

you have J high in a large pot and UTG+1 definently won't be folding, are you simply going to check the turn and either hope to hit the river or fold?

I would call here simply for the fact that you are possibly clearing your outs of hitting a JACK which is an additional 0-3 outs. UTG+1 might have a hand like JT or JQ which makes it even more of a disgusting spot. Not to mention the fact that Button might actually have a real hand and 3bet you clearing the field with you being OOP against the aggressor.

Robb · #10 10-05-2005, 01:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
what are your plans if everyone folds around to UTG+1 who calls and the turn is a blank?

you have J high in a large pot and UTG+1 definently won't be folding, are you simply going to check the turn and either hope to hit the river or fold?

I would call here simply for the fact that you are possibly clearing your outs of hitting a JACK which is an additional 0-3 outs. UTG+1 might have a hand like JT or JQ which makes it even more of a disgusting spot. Not to mention the fact that Button might actually have a real hand and 3bet you clearing the field with you being OOP against the aggressor.

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Well my thinking wasn't J high was going to be good if showdown...I was raising to clear up outs since it's a big pot. You may be right that calling here is correct. Like I said in another reply: I think it depends on my opponents cards.

You mention QJ. I think QJ and 97 are very interesting hands for my opponent to have because if I keep on the gas I probably win the pot unimproved. So in that sense I don't mind if my opponent has QJ AND it's HU because I only have to dodge a jack: my opponent won't call a river bet UI.

But I didn't think of that at the time....so I would have checked the turn if I didn't improve. I think it's pretty likely opponent is trying to protect a 10.