Using relative position to clean up outs

#1 10-05-2005, 04:40 AM

I've been working more lately on being aware of whether potential bettors are on my left or right and using them to my advantage. Was this play a good use of position to clean up my overcard outs? Notice I got a free card, too, which was nice.

Also, cap the flop and lead the turn, or not? I felt like the flop 3-bet meant my T outs were probably no good, and very likely my Q outs weren't either, so I kind of discounted myself to maybe 11-12 outs and played it accordingly.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, 1 fold, MP2 raises, 4 folds, Hero calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (11.50 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, MP2 bets, Hero raises, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP2 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (8.75 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 checks.

River: (8.75 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 9.75 BB

Paxosmotic · #2 10-05-2005, 04:41 AM

You [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]have [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]a [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]flush [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]draw! Why are you 'cleaning up outs' with >40% equity? [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

#3 10-05-2005, 05:20 AM

I have overcards and a flush draw. There is a possibility that I could win if I pair my overcards. The PF raiser could have a lot of stuff that I could beat with Qs or Ts. If my overcards are worth (conservatively) 1.5 outs each, then I have 12 outs, or nearly 50% equity. I only need another few % fold equity or more credit given to my overcards to make this profitable. What is the problem?

PokerSparky · #4 10-05-2005, 05:31 AM

I read Pax's post, and I'm a bit torn about the flop raise.

Here's what I know:

The pot is already large, and we want to do everything we can to take it down.

We would love to see the following hands fold: QJ, QK, KT, AT, AQ, Qx, Tx (with x being a card on the board), the A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], and some other hands I'm forgetting that may make redraws against us.

Edit: I went back and looked at a similar (not the same) hand from SSHE Pg. 158-159. In that hand there was a caller between you and the original bettor, so the raise can be for value and to clean up outs.

I'll let others better than I comment on this some more.

#5 10-05-2005, 05:34 AM

Preflop
I think this is fine. I don´t like a raise but i dont think it matters much.
Flop
I really think you should bid this flop trying to build a big pot and not scare everybody out with a c/r. The pot is not that big.

Paxosmotic · #6 10-05-2005, 05:46 AM

With that much equity, I will take my chances on losing the hand frequently. I'd rather have a 40% chance of winning 10 (EV - 4) bets than a 70% chance of winning 5 bets (EV - 3.5), even though it's going to bite us in the ass quite a bit. With this much equity and that many people to the flop, we should concentrate on building the pot. With the preflop raiser on our immediate right, there is no way we can raise without facing everyone with two cold, which is very likely to fold everyone out.

Thus, the play that is likely to put the most bets in the pot, as well as pause everyone at the table, is to bet right out into the preflop raiser. We have a much better chance of everyone calling one bet, and there is still a shot that he does the "your top pair is no good" raise after we bet anyway. After that, we can 3-bet or call, letting the other guys in for one more bet. I prefer the 3-bet, as the added deception (why would someone 3bet with a flush draw and overcards? maniac!) and the chance that even one person calls two more cold outweighs the obvious advantages of calling.

But in this situation, we're looking to make this pot as large as possible, with as many people in as we can fit.

TomBrooks · #7 10-05-2005, 06:03 AM

FLOP: C/R to clean up outs for your overcards good. There is no reason to cap it.

RIVER: Fold OK.

POKhER · #8 10-05-2005, 06:59 AM

call the flop, keep the field.

Notice he PFR and your outs are either:
Useless(i.e. QQ/KK/JJ/AA) or maybe you have some outs vs AK/AT/AQ and others.

AlmightyJay · #9 10-05-2005, 07:02 AM

Ew. I think check-raising is the opposite of what you want to do on this flop. That forces everyone to face two bets cold. I would bet out. You're hoping for a few calls, and then the PFR to raise you.

#10 10-05-2005, 07:14 AM

The flop raise has to be the correct play here but probably for value and in hopes of getting a free card on the turn and not necessarily "to clean up" the "overcard outs". You are still giving the three up front the odds to imagine a reason to stay in (1:14.5 pot odds versus 1:27 on a call) so, for the most part, if they wouldn't call a raise they probably wouldn't make the overcall.

I wouldn't necessarily be too thrilled with the 3-bet (bye, bye free card) but if a diamond hits on the turn I could get action from a lesser hand that MP2 is in hopeless love with (rockets?, cowboys?).

The check through on the turn catches me by suprise. Maybe MP2 was trying for a free card on the turn with two diamonds as well??? Is he trying to set a trap in order to get a bet (so he can raise) on the river??? Wtf does he have??? Any thoughts from our experts here? Should the bet be called on the river? Help this hopeless newbie out.