In too deep with AJ os

#1 10-02-2005, 05:47 PM

Table is at 35/6 over 40 hands or so, which means I'm pretty confident raising AJ os in the BB here for value.

I only have 20 hands on MP2 but he's your typical TAG. MP1 is a 32/10 over 40 hands. Neither is that aggressive postflop.

I wanted to fold my hand on every street but I figured the pot was too large until the river raise. All comments welcome.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em

Preflop: Hero is BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, Hero raises, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 3-bets, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button folds, SB folds, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 caps, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (26 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 players)
Hero checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 bets, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO calls, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (15.50 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 bets, MP2 folds, CO calls, Hero calls, UTG+2 folds.

River: (18.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, CO raises, Hero folds, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 22.50 BB

W. Deranged · #2 10-02-2005, 05:50 PM

This hand is some [censored] up [censored], homes...

Even with discounting I think you probably have outs to continue past the turn getting like 16 to 1 or whatever (I think counting about 3.25 outs or so is right). There is on reason to raise at any point considering you are really not that likely to have the best hand, you are only vulnerable to one overcard, and relative position + pot size makes it really hard to do anything useful.

River fold is easy.

Pre-flop raise is good for value, and there's no way to get away from it once you're in. I doubt any of the limp re-raises mean all that much, but it's pretty unlikely you can dodge the overcard against a field that size.

private joker · #3 10-02-2005, 06:00 PM

I hate the PF raise; post-flop is fine.

#4 10-02-2005, 06:05 PM

Why do you hate it? It's advocated in SSHE for the exact reason I gave: a fairly loose table full of poor players. Ed backs this up in his hand quizzes as well: while big unsuited cards play better against fewer people, they still have an edge in huge multiway pots such as this one.

#5 10-02-2005, 06:06 PM

Yeah I couldn't find any place to raise it postflop. I didn't think I was ahead. If there's not a river raise, am I still able to fold here or do I have to go for the overcall?

private joker · #6 10-02-2005, 06:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why do you hate it? It's advocated in SSHE for the exact reason I gave: a fairly loose table full of poor players.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have a different copy of SSHE than I do, man. Ed advocates raising AKs-ATs, and AK/AQo from the BB. Not AJo. It's just too weak to raise from the BB.

MyTurn2Raise · #7 10-02-2005, 06:23 PM

First, using the loose definition is marginal here. Loose is for 6+ people seeing the flop. At 35% VPIP, you most likely have 5 seeing most flops. This game is at the tight/loose small stakes threshold.

Second, SSHE recommends down to AQoff for raising if you want to follow it explicitly.
Remember, position counts and yours sucks.

Third, be mindful of which players are limping. It's not just table VPIP, but the players in that count. What if 2 of the limpers played less than 15% of hands so far and raised less than 4%, do you want to raise AJo out of position against them?

#8 10-02-2005, 06:30 PM

Good call PJ, I was wrong. Just looked it up, the example I was thinking of WAS AJ suited, not os. This should help my game keeping this in mind and not raising less than AQ os on the bb. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

pokolle · #9 10-02-2005, 08:25 PM

I agree, this is a VERY marginal raise for this os hand specially out of position. With a suited high hand this is a clear raise. I would put the reriasers on pocketpairs, but they dont have to be, maybe weaker suited aces or worse. But by all means, they would have better value than you have if they hade pp, I like raising pp in late position with 5 or more limpers to pad the pot for dead drawouts against my trips.

KDawgCometh · #10 10-02-2005, 08:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Good call PJ, I was wrong. Just looked it up, the example I was thinking of WAS AJ suited, not os. This should help my game keeping this in mind and not raising less than AQ os on the bb. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Honestly, I'm not raising AQo in the BB either with this many limpers in front, and I'm not raising it on the button either with this many limpers too, you just don't want to bloat the pot with these hands PF so that you have to play it like you did in this hand