100 PTBBs in with an overpair .. reasonable? obvious? terrible?

[poincaraux]

(converter isn't really working for me, so I had to edit this)

Party Poker (9 handed) converter
($25 table, blinds $0.10, $0.25) Hero starts with $47.42, Villain starts with $50.43, InnocentBystander starts with $24.

Background: I finally bought PokerTracker and looked at my stats. It looked like I wasn't playing enough hands and wasn't aggressive enough with the ones I was playing. So, I've been pretty active so far, raising to $0.75 with a lot of hands, more if I have position and there are a lot of limpers. I've been making continuation bets on most flops. The guy two seats to my right is interesting: it looks like he's read No Limit Hold'em Chapter 1 ("Raise!") but hasn't gotten to Chapter 2 ("Now what?"), so I've been isolating him a lot and taking pots away post-flop. Villain is a couple of seats to my left, fairly TAG, so this means I've been taking a lot of action away from him. I think he's a little annoyed at this. I've been getting good cards and playing a lot of pots, but I've shown *very* few hands in the last hour or so.

Preflop: Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">6 folds</font>. Hero raises to $0.75. Villain calls in the CO, InnocentBystander calls in the SB.

Flop: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
$2.50 in the pot. InnocentBystander checks, Hero bets $2.50 quickly, Villain min-raises to $5 almost instantly, InnocentBystander folds, Hero thinks for 5-10 seconds and raises to $7.50, Villain pushes (that's another $40 to me) quickly. Hero thinks for a long time and calls.

I thought for a long time about this. I'm not afraid of the straight, but I am worried about a set. I also think he might have a flush draw. If he has A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] I'm actually behind. In the end, I decided that no winning hand really made sense for him. I think the big overbet wants me to fold and that he'd try harder to get my money in if he had a set.

A couple of my friends said that this was a no-brainer call. Another one said it was a clear fold because this type of overbet is almost always the nuts. What do ya'll think?

[yvesaint]

i think you need to raise more pre-flop and your flop 3-bet amount sucks

[PoBoy321]

Raise more pre-flop, 3-bet the flop to like $12, but as you played it, I fold.

[djoyce003]

you need to be raising 4x bb plus 1 for every limper at least. Your flop reraise sucks. You either need to make a real raise, say to $12, or you need to call the raise and lead a non-heart turn...those are your only two options..min-reraising is HORRIBLE. Please don't ever do it again.

As played I fold because you are either slightly ahead or way behind and you don't have much invested. I know it sucks to fold KK, but you could be up against a straight+flush combo draw, or you could be up against a set. Absolute best case scenario for you the villain has about a 30% chance of winning. Worst case scenario you have about a 5% chance of winning.

[poincaraux]

[ QUOTE ]
i think you need to raise more pre-flop

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? I've been raising that much with a wide range of hands. It gets people to fold pretty frequently, although I usually end up with 2-3 people in the pot with me on the flop. Should I be raising enough that I don't get called most of the time? On this table, I think that means something like $1.50, which seems like quite a bit to me.

[ QUOTE ]
and your flop 3-bet amount sucks

[/ QUOTE ]
Here's my thinking: he min-raised very quickly. I think he's just trying to move me off the hand. I thought that anything more than a min-reraise would probably fold him. I was obviously wrong about this and ended up giving him 3:1 odds. Do you think it should be more like $10? $12? $15?

[djoyce003]

[ QUOTE ]

Here's my thinking: he min-raised very quickly. I think he's just trying to move me off the hand. I thought that anything more than a min-reraise would probably fold him. I was obviously wrong about this and ended up giving him 3:1 odds. Do you think it should be more like $10? $12? $15?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you raise? You raise because you think you have the best hand, to reduce the field, gain information, control the odds your opponents are getting. If you are ahead and your opponent is drawing do you want to give him great odds? You are begging a flush draw to call, your raise doesn't give you any information because ANY hand is basically going to call...it isn't going to push anyone out of the hand. Basically all your raise does is make the pot a little bigger. Make a real raise here...then if you get played back at you can figure you are way behind...as played we still know nothing and now we are facing a large bet.

[poincaraux]

Ack! I screwed up typing in the hand history:

On the flop, I bet $2.50, he raised $5.00, I re-raised $7.50 and he pushed. My betting here isn't great, but at least it's not a pure min-reraise [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

[poincaraux]

[ QUOTE ]
you need to be raising 4x bb plus 1 for every limper at least.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is 4x bb so much better than 3x bb here?

[ QUOTE ]
Your flop reraise sucks. You either need to make a real raise, say to $12, or you need to call the raise and lead a non-heart turn...those are your only two options..min-reraising is HORRIBLE. Please don't ever do it again.

[/ QUOTE ]
crap. I looked at the hand history again, and I typed things in incorrectly. The flop betting was this: I bet $2.50, he raised $5.00, I re-raised $7.50, he pushed (not, as I said before, I bet $2.50, he raised *to* $5 and I raised *to* 7.50)

[ QUOTE ]
As played I fold because you are either slightly ahead or way behind and you don't have much invested. I know it sucks to fold KK, but you could be up against a straight+flush combo draw, or you could be up against a set. Absolute best case scenario for you the villain has about a 30% chance of winning. Worst case scenario you have about a 5% chance of winning.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I was thinking "ahead of a bluff or flush draw, behind a set" but I probably should have phrased it as "slightly ahead or way behind." Thanks.

[poincaraux]

[ QUOTE ]
raise? You raise because you think you have the best hand, to reduce the field, gain information, control the odds your opponents are getting. If you are ahead and your opponent is drawing do you want to give him great odds? You are begging a flush draw to call, your raise doesn't give you any information because ANY hand is basically going to call...it isn't going to push anyone out of the hand. Basically all your raise does is make the pot a little bigger. Make a real raise here...then if you get played back at you can figure you are way behind...as played we still know nothing and now we are facing a large bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
(NOTE: I typed in the raise ammounts incorrectly earlier. The flop action went: I bet $2.50, he raises $5.00 and I re-raise $7.50) Yeah .. I raised because I was pretty that he was just trying to take the pot away from me. I thought I had the best hand and that he'd give up for any re-raise. At this point in the hand, I don't think I spent enough time thinking about what sorts of hands he might really have. I just thought he was trying to make a move.

Do you think stack sizes affect this? If he starts with $20, this is a much larger portion of his stack. At this level, does that make him more likely to fold because he doesn't want to lose money or more likely to put the rest of his stack in because he's closer to committed?

[yvesaint]

Because at micro-limits, 3xBB is just not enough value. In fact, you can go through up to and probably at 200 NL raising 6xBB + 1 BB for each limper. Especially full-ring SSNL, your hands are going to be much better starting hands, then say, your PFR hand standards at 200 NL 6-max. I'm playing 2/4 and I'm still raising 4x BB + 1 BB for each limper.

When you're the aggressor, and you're holding good hands, you want to build the pot while you are still sure you are ahead. I'm not looking for an excuse later to 'get away' from KK because I didn't make the pot big to begin with. 4xBB might not seem that much more, but long-term, you'll be getting much more value from your hands. Because people will still call with their crap like K6 or weak aces whether you raise 3xBB or 4xBB. You're definitely not going to 'scare anyone off' with that extra BB.