54s hand

betgo · #1 09-25-2005, 03:02 PM

Paradise $30 MTT, 18 of 186 players remaining. Blinds 600/1200/75. I am in 5th place with T19K. 3rd position with T6K limps. 3rd position had played aggressively earlier. Folded to me in SB. BB has T4K after posting. Should I push or complete?

I complete, BB checks. Flop is 875 with a 2-flush none of my suit, giving me 3rd pair and a gutshot which may not be good. Push, bet, or check?

I checked the flop. I think I should have pushed. BB checks. Button pushes. Should I call?

TheBlueMonster · #2 09-25-2005, 03:27 PM

If he's been playing agressively and suddenly limps then you have to assume he's pretty strong....or he might have crap and is assuming that neither of you have anything. I can't see making this call with bottom pair. Even if you're ahead, he at least has two live cards.
There are times when you know you have the best hand and you still have to fold.

Exitonly · #3 09-25-2005, 03:37 PM

yea that guy limping all of a sudden is bad news i think.. so i wouldnt push PF..

then once that flop comes, best case for you is two overs, but i think thats wishful thinking.. either he limped w/ a medium pair, or maybe something like 89 or 78s.. or he limped w/ a monster, both of which have you beat.. So unles he has like JTs or maybe 44(?) it's a fold.. i dont think you need to force anynthing now you're doing fine, wait until you have position.

betgo · #4 09-25-2005, 03:46 PM

If I push preflop, BB folds, and limper calls, I have 2-1 on my money. 54s is better than 3-2 against many overcards. However, I am not in good shape against an overpair, which is a likely holding. I get worse than 3-2 against a higher suited connector/gapper, which is also a reasonable holding.

Again I have 2-1 pot odd if I push on the flop and get a caller. It is possible I am ahead and I have outs otherwise. There is some possibility I can take the pot with a flop push.

I folded the hand, but wasn't sure if it was right. I don't think pushing preflop or on the flop at the 2 short stacks is a terrible play, given pot odds and (on the flop) folding equity.

odiggity · #5 09-25-2005, 03:48 PM

a guy that short limping is almost certainly AA or KK. especially with blinds coming up and hes in 3rd pos. i agree with exit--fold. what did u do?

betgo · #6 09-25-2005, 04:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
a guy that short limping is almost certainly AA or KK. especially with blinds coming up and hes in 3rd pos. i agree with exit--fold. what did u do?

[/ QUOTE ]

If villain does have AA or KK, I have a 31% chance on the flop (with 3rd pair and gutshot) and I am putting up 35% with pot odds. A big pair is a likely holding for villain, but not certain. I still think pushing the flop is a reasonable semibluff.

As mentioned, I check/folded.

EnderIII · #7 09-25-2005, 04:44 PM

I like the semi-bluff on the flop, its a good place to possibly pick up some chips for free and you aren't in too bad of shape if you do get called. I think putting an aggressive player who limps in LP on only AA or KK is way too tight of a range, I think you have some reasonable FE and might even be ahead.

Most important in my consideration of all this is the stack sizes, neither involved player can cripple you...so its a good time to try to accumulate some more chips and move up from 5th to top 3 in chips. Given all of this, i don't hate a fold, i'm just agreeing that it is a reasonable spot to take a shot at to gather some more chips.

There are also residual benefits to having people see you go all-in with a hand like 54s, can make it easier for them to pay off your real hands. 54s is like a tilt producing factory.

mayesie · #8 09-25-2005, 07:48 PM

IMO, the open-limp from 3rd position seems strange. What makes him think he's going to see a cheap flop? Either 1) He's praying for a cheap flop w/ a drawing hand or 2) He's trapping. If you can answer which one is more likely, that should answer your question as to whether or not you should've pushed pre-flop.

Pushing after the flop is fine. The BB is highly unlikely to be a threat, and the guy in 3rd position can't hurt you too much (If you're lucky, he'll fold). If you check the flop, you basically forfeit this pot (you're certainly not hoping for a push from the villain).

kuro · #9 09-25-2005, 08:14 PM

I'd just fold preflop. Your suited connector just doesn't have much value here because you've got very little folding equity if you push vs. the short stacked bb and you're likely behind his random hand. The aggressive guy suddenly limping is very troubling as well because he likely has a hand that calls a push.

So save your 1 BB and look for spots to push preflop.