jason_t v. jgorham #1

jason_t · #1 09-24-2005, 11:33 AM

Folded to jgorhman in the CO and he opens. I 3-bet on the Button with KK. An unknown BB calls and jgorham calls.

Flop: Q74r
BB checks, jgorham checks, I bet, BB folds, jgorham calls.

Turn: Q
jgorham checks, I

dhaimon · #2 09-24-2005, 11:37 AM

bet and call down if raised

QTip · #3 09-24-2005, 11:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Folded to jgorhman in the CO and he opens. I 3-bet on the Button with KK. An unknown BB calls and jgorham calls.

Flop: Q74r
BB checks, jgorham checks, I bet, BB folds, jgorham calls.

Turn: Q
jgorham checks, I

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know much about jgorhman, but I think it would be a smart play on the flop to bet out if he had a Q.

If he would check call with a Q, then perhaps one could think of checking so the only overcard you give is an A, you avoid getting raised, may indude a river bet or call with a worse hand.

However, given the size of the pot, I like a bet better here instead of giving my opponent infinite odds to a 2 or 3 outer hand.

Entity · #4 09-24-2005, 11:46 AM

I don't know jgorham but my default against a tricky aggressive player I don't mind a check here. Depends on how much bluffinducing you can do, really, since checking tells him that you are planning on showing down.

Rob

Alex/Mugaaz · #5 09-24-2005, 12:08 PM

I don't like this line. I think betting out is much better. The only queen he might have is AQ or possible QJ and I see no reason he wouldnt of bet the flop. Besides this holding he has an ace or a small pp, either way we can bet for value. Why give a free card here for a very doubtful river bluff? If an ace drops on the river are you folding to a bet?

Entity · #6 09-24-2005, 12:10 PM

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I don't like this line. I think betting out is much better. The only queen he might have is AQ or possible QJ and I see no reason he wouldnt of bet the flop. Besides this holding he has an ace or a small pp, either way we can bet for value. Why give a free card here for a very doubtful river bluff? If an ace drops on the river are you folding to a bet?

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The whole point of this line is to keep him in with his full range of hands, which is probably 55+, Queens, and possibly Aces. If jgorham can't fold any of those hands here there's no value in it, but that's not very likely. And giving a 3 outer in a tiny pot is hardly a mistake if it induces bets or calls that you wouldn't have gotten from 66 or 88.

Rob

QTip · #7 09-24-2005, 12:17 PM

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I don't like this line. I think betting out is much better. The only queen he might have is AQ or possible QJ and I see no reason he wouldnt of bet the flop. Besides this holding he has an ace or a small pp, either way we can bet for value. Why give a free card here for a very doubtful river bluff? If an ace drops on the river are you folding to a bet?

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The whole point of this line is to keep him in with his full range of hands, which is probably 55+, Queens, and possibly Aces. If jgorham can't fold any of those hands here there's no value in it, but that's not very likely. And giving a 3 outer in a tiny pot is hardly a mistake if it induces bets or calls that you wouldn't have gotten from 66 or 88.

Rob

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I'm not following Rob.

This is not a tiny pot...not huge, but I'll take it all day.

If he can't fold those hands, there's a lot of value in betting. He's calling with this worst of it. Oh....perhaps, you're saying there's no value in checking if he wouldn't call with a worse hand... I'm not sure I agree with that either though. Perhaps if the pot were 2 or 3 BB smaller... However, I have no problems with taking this pot down right now.

Alex/Mugaaz · #8 09-24-2005, 12:28 PM

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I don't like this line. I think betting out is much better. The only queen he might have is AQ or possible QJ and I see no reason he wouldnt of bet the flop. Besides this holding he has an ace or a small pp, either way we can bet for value. Why give a free card here for a very doubtful river bluff? If an ace drops on the river are you folding to a bet?

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The whole point of this line is to keep him in with his full range of hands, which is probably 55+, Queens, and possibly Aces. If jgorham can't fold any of those hands here there's no value in it, but that's not very likely. And giving a 3 outer in a tiny pot is hardly a mistake if it induces bets or calls that you wouldn't have gotten from 66 or 88.

Rob

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I understand what you're saying but I think vs an avg donk this play doesn't show a profit. If you know he will bet the river with any pp and Ax air then sure, otherwise vs avg donk I think all this does is give them a free draw to their ace.

Entity · #9 09-24-2005, 12:42 PM

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I don't like this line. I think betting out is much better. The only queen he might have is AQ or possible QJ and I see no reason he wouldnt of bet the flop. Besides this holding he has an ace or a small pp, either way we can bet for value. Why give a free card here for a very doubtful river bluff? If an ace drops on the river are you folding to a bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

The whole point of this line is to keep him in with his full range of hands, which is probably 55+, Queens, and possibly Aces. If jgorham can't fold any of those hands here there's no value in it, but that's not very likely. And giving a 3 outer in a tiny pot is hardly a mistake if it induces bets or calls that you wouldn't have gotten from 66 or 88.

Rob

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I'm not following Rob.

This is not a tiny pot...not huge, but I'll take it all day.

If he can't fold those hands, there's a lot of value in betting. He's calling with this worst of it. Oh....perhaps, you're saying there's no value in checking if he wouldn't call with a worse hand... I'm not sure I agree with that either though. Perhaps if the pot were 2 or 3 BB smaller... However, I have no problems with taking this pot down right now.

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Well, you have to weight all the factors. How would he play a Queen? What about 88/99? Would he checkraise those? What about 77? Will he check-call with an Ace on the river (he usually doesn't have an Ace here unless he has AK which is very unlikely)?

If checking never gains you an extra bet, then it's best to simply bet. It's especially good to bet if you know he can only c/r a better hand, or that you know he'll c/r worse hands but with such a frequency that you can't call down.

The overall cost of a free card, assuming he has 2.5 outs (which is often an overestimate since he won't check-call this flop with AT very often) is something like .054x5.75BB=.3105BB. However, when you consider that people here seem to be advocating a bet-and-calldown line, then the fact that you're losing about 2.6 bets against a Q/77, meaning you're going to have to be inducing a lot of worse hands to c/r the turn, or you'll have to be getting jgorham to call down on both the turn and river UI with 66, which he shouldn't do, especially against jason.

Jason's hand, if he bets the flop and checks the turn, will look to a decent player like an AJ/AK that is calling the river in order to bluffcatch a certain % of the time. This is where you will get the most value from your hand -- since your hand looks like AJ/AK, maybe ATs, you will either induce value bets or bluffcatching calls on the river a fair amount from these hands.

The assumption that jgorham is going to call jason_t down on this board with 66 or 88 is what seems to be driving this discussion to a bet-and-call down line, but the fact that jgorham probably knows that jason can't bet all streets UI with AK (yet) is what drives me to consider checking here a lot more. If I know jgorham were wreckless and would c/r with a high frequency of worse hands here, like 88 and 99, I'd bet and call down a c/r. If he would pay off a turn bet with any pocket pair and will call a river bet as well, then it's best to keep betting. If he folds all but his best PP's (probably TT, JJ) to a turn bet, then it's probably best to check and let him have a shot at a 2-outer. The idea is basically that if we can get 1 extra BB 33% of the time that he wouldn't normally have sent our way, it's a good check.

Rob

Entity · #10 09-24-2005, 12:43 PM

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I don't like this line. I think betting out is much better. The only queen he might have is AQ or possible QJ and I see no reason he wouldnt of bet the flop. Besides this holding he has an ace or a small pp, either way we can bet for value. Why give a free card here for a very doubtful river bluff? If an ace drops on the river are you folding to a bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

The whole point of this line is to keep him in with his full range of hands, which is probably 55+, Queens, and possibly Aces. If jgorham can't fold any of those hands here there's no value in it, but that's not very likely. And giving a 3 outer in a tiny pot is hardly a mistake if it induces bets or calls that you wouldn't have gotten from 66 or 88.

Rob

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I understand what you're saying but I think vs an avg donk this play doesn't show a profit. If you know he will bet the river with any pp and Ax air then sure, otherwise vs avg donk I think all this does is give them a free draw to their ace.

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Um, you do realize he's playing against jgorham, right? And jgorham is far from an average donk? There are many players against whom checking here is better than betting, and without knowing the specific dynamic between them (reads, damn you, jason, reads!) I can't say.

Rob