J10 on the button multiway, flop middle pair

J. Stew · #1 09-20-2005, 02:44 PM

One orbit in and the table is somewhat loose and somewhat passive. Villain here was unremarkable in nine hands.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 2 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Anybody raise here?

Flop: (6 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP2 checks, MP3 bets, Hero raises, SB folds, BB folds, UTG folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls.

We're raising here to: (I'm asking here)

1. knock out gutshots and charge flush draws
2. try to fold small pp's or do we want them calling?
3. get money in the pot with possibly the best hand.

Turn: (5 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP3 checks, Hero bets, MP3 calls.

Everyone folded to a flop raise and Mp3 just called. Mp3 checks the turn and I put him on a weak Ace, a flush draw, a gutshot, a better ten than mine like Q10, K10, or a small pocket pair.

I think I'm behind about half of the hands I put him on and ahead of about half. He checked to me so I'm leaning towards me being ahead but I am still 50-50 cause a passive player would probably check a weak ace and certainly a Q10/K10 to a flop-raise. I bet he calls.

River: (7 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP3 checks, Hero checks.

Brick on the river and he checks to me. He missed his flush and straight draws if he was on them. If he had a weak Ace he's calling me down and in my experience so far most .5/1 Partiers will call down a better ten than mine in this spot.

Is this an example of 'only a better hand will call here'?

If my read on villain was 'loose, calling-station' would you value bet the river, or should I have anyways?

Final Pot: 7 BB

Vote4Pedro · #2 09-20-2005, 02:58 PM

Right idea, just wrong time to use it. I dont think the pots big enough to make this play worth while. Unless the bettor is a total douche, I'm folding the flop due to the vulnerability of your hand, and the cleanliness of your outs.

#3 09-20-2005, 03:01 PM

Overall I think this is well played. I think you can definitely raise JTs pre-flop on the button vs. three limpers. On the river I think I like betting, but I'm not sure. One thing that doesn't make sense is

[ QUOTE ]

most .5/1 Partiers will call down a better ten than mine in this spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are splitting with any other T that's not two pairs, because there are an ace and a pair of twos on the board. To me that's the best reason to bet: you could very well be splitting the pot, but he might fold a T to the river bet. I'm not sure, though.

#4 09-20-2005, 03:01 PM

I'd value bet the river (with either of your reads) expecting to win more than 70% of the time at $0.50/$1 (where 70% is made up & really means enough for the value bet to be profitable).

irishpint · #5 09-20-2005, 03:03 PM

i'd raise this PF on the button, too, since our hand plays feel multiway. here i think we can fold the flop since we have bad position (in relation to the bettor) and we have no backdoor draws and our outs aren't clean (create flush/straight opps).

J. Stew · #6 09-20-2005, 03:04 PM

Ahh yes I didn't see that thanks.

J. Stew · #7 09-20-2005, 03:20 PM

Ok so we're assuming that we're behind here even though everyone checked and the initial flop-bet came from a late position. Doesn't SSHE advocate raising in this spot? We have a decent hand and only a late position player likes his hand so far.

J. Stew · #8 09-20-2005, 03:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Right idea, just wrong time to use it. I dont think the pots big enough to make this play worth while. Unless the bettor is a total douche, I'm folding the flop due to the vulnerability of your hand, and the cleanliness of your outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

So even if we do have the best hand here, which is a possibility since everybody checked but a late position player, our edge is too small in a small pot to make this a +ev play long term?

Taxmanrick · #9 09-20-2005, 03:46 PM

I like the way you played it.

Roadstar · #10 09-20-2005, 04:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Right idea, just wrong time to use it. I dont think the pots big enough to make this play worth while. Unless the bettor is a total douche, I'm folding the flop due to the vulnerability of your hand, and the cleanliness of your outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I disagree, I think the flop raise (if you choose to employ it) is to *clean up* your outs AND potentially get a free card. It is the wrong time to use it if the table is full of calling stations where this play will not work.

The OP's position is the best (hes on the button).

Heres my take (from the start):

Raise preflop, you have good position and a hand that plays multiway very well.

On the flop, its either raise or fold. Lacking reads (and with ppl usually playing Ax at this level), villain likely has an ace. Your raise is to 1) clear the field and 2) hopefully get a free card on the turn (get a card cheaper). You do this if you think the rest of the field aren't donks who'd call 2 cold (and if villain is not overly aggressive to 3 bet you back).

Assuming you raised

Turn: Check behind! I don't think you're ahead, take that free card.

River: Check behind if checked to. If bet to, I might fold unless villain is prone to bluffing in this situation.
(this changes if you improved to 2 pair or trips obviously)

Thoughts?