I suppose I should be pleased (LC)

[AtticusFinch]

This is a question about managing low-grade frustration, and maintaining confidence in your game. Move on if this does not interest you. Save your flames, 'cause I've heard 'em all before.

I know for a fact I'm not the only one in this position, so perhaps some words of wisdom on the topic could benefit others as well.

Tonight was an above-average, but not out-of-the-ordinary night for me. I played 4 tourneys, cashed in 3 and made it semi-deep in the other.

My finishes were:

9th at the Bodog 10k (533 entrants)
43rd at the Party 40k (2250 entrants)
26th at the Full Tilt 8k (400 entrants)
300-ish at the PS 11r (~1200 entrants)

Net profits for the night are ~400, after deducting about $90 in buyins and rebuys. I've tripled the 1.2k roll I allocated to start off with MTTs in about 2 months of averaging about 1-2 tourneys a night. I've made 2 final tables in the past week, although one appearance only lasted one hand. I have a second and a fourth under my belt, but those were in small tourneys (< 300 people).

I suppose I should be pleased, but I've been SO close to a big score I could smell it -- several times -- and that's all that seems to stick in my head. Tonight, for example, in the 40k, villain hit a 6-outer on the river to knock me out 43rd. If I'd have won that hand, I'd have been chip leader with 43 to go. Not a terrible beat, really -- it was a flip PF, but that's what will be running around in my head as I go to sleep, rather than the nice results I've had tonight. I don't even doubt my decision to push, or his decision to call. Both were reasonable. It's just a case of "what might have been."

For those who have been around longer, how long did you play before your first win? And did you have the same nagging doubt that you weren't a successful player until you had at least one victory?

Most importantly, did you ever start questioning whether you were "playing to win," and try to adjust your game? This is what nags at me the most -- should I stick to my game, which seems to be working reasonably well, and be confident that a win is only a matter of time? Or should I consider making style adjustments to try and make deeper finishes, at the risk of higher variance, or even making my game worse? (I'm not talking about working on playing individual hands better. I never stop doing that.)

Any advice?

[billyjex]

There's not much you can do. I think you will always think about that big score that could have been, but it should be comforting to know that given one coinflip or not getting sucked out on you would be much richer. You're playing well enough to get that close to the big one.

I finished 10th out of ~2200 in a Party $500k for $8k. First was $166k. I get annoyed by that about every day. There's just so much luck involved, don't beat yourself up about it too much.

[Exitonly]

couldn't really focus on everything you said, but odn't be dissapointed by the lack of big scores yet...

i've been playing over the same time span but like 5x as many tournaments.. and i only have 3 or 4 'biggish' (2500+) scores..

so don't be discouraged.

before my first actual win (besides a handful of 150 person ones that i dont counnt..also not couunnting micro's) came like 3 weeks ago in a $20. I had 4 other top 3 finishes before that one came.

And i managed to never get discouraged despite blowing 1k learning MTT's in July.

[ansky451]

I really feel for you.

Poker is hard game to be good at, and tournament poker-- especially late on in a tournament, is even harder in my opinion. The huge variance involved, means that the stress you will face is huge.

I have had many moments where I was chip leader in a tournament with 50, or 20, or 10 left, and I was knocked out a few minutes later. Every time was like a dagger in my foot. It can drive you crazy when you wonder what might have been.

I still sort of deal with the same problem you are reffering to, but I have definitely come a long way in trying to stay emotionally removed from poker. It is just a game, a game with a lot of money involved. The truth is, if you stick with it long enough you "should" get that big cash, although there are no guarentees.

Personally I started out my tournament play with a lot of losses, until I finally was able to break through that invisible barrier to allow me to play my best. It of course was with a lot of study, and practice, but eventually I felt very comfortable with my play in tournaments.

Right now, my biggest problem, is closing the deal. I have just 2 wins under my belt, (1 limit hold'em, 1 nl) but neither were very large buy ins, or large fields. I do however, have multiple 3rds and 2nds. Just now actually, I finished 3rd in the UB 20k for 2600. A decent payday, but it took me 10 minutes to stop banging my head against a wall (figuratively speaking). I have a 2nd place in both the 100 rebuy, and 50 rebuy on stars. I also finished third... 4 times in 50 rebuys (3 on stars, 1 on party), and 3rd in the 300 on stars. So yeah, I really need to get better at the end of tournaments.

Similar to what billyjex said, I came 6th in the partypoker sunday 500k, for 13,000. In my final hand I was all in preflop in a pretty big pot with AQ vs KT and I lost. For a while I dwelled on that hand, cursing my luck that I lost it. But since I have come to realize that the cards all even out, and I have had my fair share of painful suckouts on other people, and it is pointless to think about something totally out of your control.

Just keep at it, stay focused, and never lose confidence in yourself.

DS

[schwah]

welcome to MTT's

MTTs are exciting because you can a) turn a fairly small buyin into a huge score and b) have the opportunity to play for much higher stakes than your bankroll would normally allow, without risking more than the tournament buyin. obviously the flip side is that if you take a bad beat, or misplay a hand late in a tournament, the real money (well, equity as the case may be) lost is potentially HUGE compared to what you're normally used to playing for.

i'm sure you understand what i'm saying but let me put it in more concrete terms. say you are playing the weekly stars $200 tourney. you are near the bubble but not in the money yet. blinds are 1000/2000. this is equivelant to playing a $80/160 no limit game (every 2500 chips is worth $200). obviously most people playing this tournament are not 80/160 nl players [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

a friend of mine once lost to a 1 outter (set over set) in this tourney for roughly 140k chips with 400 people left. that's an $11k bad beat, which for many people in the tourney is their bankroll many times over.

basically what i'm getting at is that if you want to continue playing MTT's, develop a thick skin. if playing for extremely high stakes with no option of "cashing out" until you win the tourney or go bust makes you nervous, then stick to STTs or ring games.

[FishInAPhoneBooth]

I have had several "big scores" and can relate to your frustration. It took me four to six months from the time I became serious about my MTT game, but it easily could have been four to six years. Unfortunately for me I did not fear I my own incompetence until after I came up one time. Couldn't help but wonder if my victory was the equivalent of winning the super lotto..did I just suck out my way to the top? (Gaining my uber-chip lead AI preflop with AQs v AK v AT did not boost my confidence.) The what might of been monster plagues me as well, hell I would be asleep now if it weren't.

Your results are great, you are making it to the top 2% of the field, you only need a little luck to bring you home. Unless you have specific changes you want to implement, fudging with what works is a bad idea IMO. You have obviously developed a style you are comfortable with that is working well. It is only a matter of time.

<><

[ansky451]

[ QUOTE ]
Couldn't help but wonder if my victory was the equivalent of winning the super lotto..did I just suck out my way to the top? (Gaining my uber-chip lead AI preflop with AQs v AK v AT did not boost my confidence.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm guessing you are referring to the party 40k that you won, which I read a post about. I think its almost impossible to win a 2000 person tournament, without winning a big suckout. Never feel bad about winning with the worst hand, feel bad about playing a hand poorly-- it is much worse in the long run.

[Exitonly]

yea that's the thing that gave me a little grief.. in most of my wins (read: all but 1) i had to suckout pretty hard to get there.

So when i went through a tiny dry spell i began to wonder if it was just me getting lucky.. but then i rethought it atll and aslong as i was making the right play when i sucked out, i'm fine with it, and don't feel guilty for winning. That said, there's a couple of deep finishes i can attribute to making the wrong play too. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[benneh]

"Or should I consider making style adjustments to try and make deeper finishes, at the risk of higher variance, or even making my game worse? (I'm not talking about working on playing individual hands better. I never stop doing that.)
"

Taht sounds like me. I hardly ever cash. In fact, most nights, i'm a net loser for MTTs. I'll blow up to 200 a night on MTTs sometimes, but then recoop my losses in sit n gos and cash games in the morning.

Or perhaps i'm just delusional. I don't have my ITM% anymore since I stopped keeping records out of laziness last month, but i'd imagine it's under 10%. Maybe as low as 5%. Of course, I can't say for sure withour keeping record, and of course, it's a small sample size.

However, in the few tourneys i've cashed in, i've FT'd in 50% (I know this cause of thepokerdb), with an average placing of 3rd. I can't imagine this is normal, and 50% final tables is definitly not sustainable (or so i'd tink. boy, it'd be nice), but it sounds like what you described, and I tihnk it is osmething you should consider. But i've never seen you play, so I can't offer you any pointers or advice aside from be an absolute maniac and look stupid when you get caught. :P

[FishInAPhoneBooth]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Couldn't help but wonder if my victory was the equivalent of winning the super lotto..did I just suck out my way to the top? (Gaining my uber-chip lead AI preflop with AQs v AK v AT did not boost my confidence.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm guessing you are referring to the party 40k that you won, which I read a post about. I think its almost impossible to win a 2000 person tournament, without winning a big suckout. Never feel bad about winning with the worst hand, feel bad about playing a hand poorly-- it is much worse in the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I was thinking about my first big score with a first place in a pokerroom $20k. I got second in the PP 40k, a fellow 2+2er took down first.

It wasn't really the fact that I sucked out, that is a must for any victory, it was more the long stretch with no other "big scores" which followed that made me wonder.