Blocking bets and inducing bluffs.

[Jimbio]

Today i've ran into several problems when making what i think is blocking bets.
First to get the facts straight, if a blocking bet is what i think it is: it's a rather smallish bet on the river, designed to offer a cheap smalldown, often holding a marginal hand.
Its intention is twofold, first the one described, second; if raised, you are almost always beaten.

Have i gotten it right so far?

I dont know if Howard lederer is very popular on these boards, or if discussing his tapes is allowed, but if anyone got any issues, i'll edit my post right away.
Anyway, on the 2:nd tape - "more secrets" he discusses a similar bet on the river, but this time with the intention of his opponent to make a raise that would indicate to him that villain was bluffing.

Just to shed some light on what i mean, let me describe a hand i just played, I dont remember it in detail, but the relevant cards and actions are there.

A very loose and aggressive opponent ( 63/25/3) opens the pot for x4bb. I call in the SB with QJs

We have 100bb each btw.

Flop comes J high and i check to him, he makes a lill more than pot sized bet, i call - figuring i got the best hand.
The turn is a blank, and i make a 2/3 pot size bet at him, he calls somewhat quickly.
The river is a king. Yay.

If i check the river to him now, i feel like i will get bluffed out of the pot as i'm sure he will bet around the pot, and perhaps i'm weak tight [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] - But i dont think i can call with second pair, as i feel his turn call was a frustrated AK.

I'm sorry for not being specific about certain details, but i hope you get the idea.
Anyway, i made a bet of around 2/5:th of the pot on the river, and got raised x4.

Was this an indication that i was beat? Did i just induce him to bluff?

The difference between the 2 bets, and when they should be applied are somewhat a mystery to me. Could someone fill me in?

A blocking bet is a move designed to stop a bluff, not induce one.
When you stop a bluff, you intend to fold if your opponent bets since you have reduced the chances he is bluffing.

As to when to induce/stop bluffs: if you think your opponent bluffs too much, you should induce a bluff.
If you think your opponent bluffs too little, you should stop a bluff.

[Jimbio]

ok, but what i described was 2 types of river bets. One to block a bluff, and one to induce one.

And what i'm asking is; whats the difference as in how you should go about? situations, opponents, etc.

Since in my example villain was more than likly to bluff, a simple, but painfull check-call would be the best line? check fold?

A bet on the river - could i make one that would tell me if i was beat or not?

In your example, you stopped a bluff with a blocking bet. Once you get raised, you should lay down your mediocre hand.
As for your other question, I think you are asking if leading out with a small bet on the river can be used to induce a bluff? The only way this could possibly work would be against a thinking opponent who would put you on a mediocre holding because of the percieved blocking bet. So, playing small stakes against fishy opponents, blocking bets on the river should only be used to stop bluffs, not induce them.

[bkholdem]

[ QUOTE ]
Today i've ran into several problems when making what i think is blocking bets.
First to get the facts straight, if a blocking bet is what i think it is: it's a rather smallish bet on the river, designed to offer a cheap smalldown, often holding a marginal hand.
Its intention is twofold, first the one described, second; if raised, you are almost always beaten.

Have i gotten it right so far?

**** Do not forget the times that vilian puts you on a weak hand because of your small river bet and raises you with nothing figuring you will likely fold. I think a lag would be more likely to do this than a random player.

I dont know if Howard lederer is very popular on these boards, or if discussing his tapes is allowed, but if anyone got any issues, i'll edit my post right away.
Anyway, on the 2:nd tape - "more secrets" he discusses a similar bet on the river, but this time with the intention of his opponent to make a raise that would indicate to him that villain was bluffing.

Just to shed some light on what i mean, let me describe a hand i just played, I dont remember it in detail, but the relevant cards and actions are there.

A very loose and aggressive opponent ( 63/25/3) opens the pot for x4bb. I call in the SB with QJs

**** why do you call here? Why do you want to play a lag out of postion? Do you feel confident that you can outplay him? Do you have any other plan than hoping to catch a good flop?

We have 100bb each btw.

Flop comes J high and i check to him, he makes a lill more than pot sized bet, i call - figuring i got the best hand.

**** I would checkraise the pot here. I am not in favor of building a pot out of position against a lag. This way when you lead the turn and he raises you know your beat. If he calls it helps you narrow his range of hands as he has called your flop checkraise (a show of strength on your part).


The turn is a blank, and i make a 2/3 pot size bet at him, he calls somewhat quickly.
The river is a king. Yay.

If i check the river to him now, i feel like i will get bluffed out of the pot as i'm sure he will bet around the pot, and perhaps i'm weak tight [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] - But i dont think i can call with second pair, as i feel his turn call was a frustrated AK.

***You should not be putting vilian on such a narrow range of hand here. He could have almost anything.

I'm sorry for not being specific about certain details, but i hope you get the idea.
Anyway, i made a bet of around 2/5:th of the pot on the river, and got raised x4.

Was this an indication that i was beat? Did i just induce him to bluff?

The difference between the 2 bets, and when they should be applied are somewhat a mystery to me. Could someone fill me in?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your hand can not stand a raise here I do not think. Checkraise the flop and lead the turn.

[TreyOfLight]

[ QUOTE ]
ok, but what i described was 2 types of river bets. One to block a bluff, and one to induce one.

And what i'm asking is; whats the difference as in how you should go about? situations, opponents, etc.

A bet on the river - could i make one that would tell me if i was beat or not?

[/ QUOTE ]Lederer specifically underbets the pot, I think something like 1/5-1/4. He wasn't sure he was ahead, but he was pretty sure his opponent was weak, too, and couldn't legitimately raise.

Induce a bluff (by betting small) when you're a little ahead or a little behind. Block bet (enough that it looks serious) when you're way ahead or way behind.

A block bet only makes sense if your opponent is capable of folding after this kind of action. Against a crazy player, I like a check-call better. You still make good money when he bluffs, but by showing weakness you may induce him to bet smaller with his good hands. The line you took would be perfect for this opponent if you held KJ.

[Jocke_F]

this is not the type of opponent you would like to make blocking bets against, certainly not 2/5 pot sizes, he will most certainly understand that you hate the king and raise, check-call is better line since he would probably still bluff at it but it hopefully it wont cost you as much to get a showdown. Make blocking bets against passive/predictable opponents that are unlikely to bluff you if you bet out when a flush card, 4 to a straight etc. hits and you are unsure if they hade a made weak hand that you beat or if they just completed a draw, get out if they raise.