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  #1  
Old 09-19-2005, 12:32 PM
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Default Secondary Short Stack, Already in The $$ problem

Okay, I don't have a Hand History, so I will replicate the hand as best as possible. I am mainly concerned with this TYPE of situation, rather than this specific hand. Here goes:

PP $11 SNG, Three handed
Blinds 200/400

Button/Chipleader = t6000
sb/Hero= t1500 (before 200 sb post)
bb/Shorty= t500 (100 behind after bb)
Dealt to Hero Kd2d
Button raises to 800,
Hero...?

I am interested in what you guys think of this situation. I had a strong sense to push. The button had a huge chip lead and was trying to shut me out against the short stack, who was effectively all in. While K2 is not a great hand, I thought that it might be strong enough, in combination with the button's hand, to be worth a push. If the button wins the hand, tourney over and i take second anyway. If I win the hand, then I'm guaranteed second and close to even in chips with button. However, I did not want to triple up the shorty, so I reluctantly folded. I feel like I made an error. I am interested in knowing if you think a push would have been correct as a secondary short stack? If K2 suited is not good enough to make this play, what hands do you think are? Is this a situation where it is correct to push any two hoping one of you can eliminate the short stack? If not any two, what hands should I push here?
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  #2  
Old 09-19-2005, 12:36 PM
schwza schwza is offline
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Default Re: Secondary Short Stack, Already in The $$ problem

you should fold because your hand sucks.

i'd say KQ may be playable, but i wouldn't mind a fold.
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  #3  
Old 09-19-2005, 12:44 PM
diebitter diebitter is offline
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Default Re: Secondary Short Stack, Already in The $$ problem

fold and let the big guy handle it.
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  #4  
Old 09-19-2005, 12:47 PM
nyc999 nyc999 is offline
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Default Re: Secondary Short Stack, Already in The $$ problem

[ QUOTE ]
you should fold because your hand sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]
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  #5  
Old 09-19-2005, 12:48 PM
OatmealJoe OatmealJoe is offline
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Default Re: Secondary Short Stack, Already in The $$ problem

[ QUOTE ]


bb/Shorty= t500 (100 behind after bb)
...

Is this a situation where it is correct to push any two hoping one of you can eliminate the short stack?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you push, the short stack could always fold and hope that the big stack calls and eliminates you. I'd fold here.
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  #6  
Old 09-19-2005, 12:52 PM
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Default Re: Secondary Short Stack, Already in The $$ problem

Okay, let me explain why I think it's not such an easy decision. I have only 1300 left if I fold, and if the short stack doubles up, he will have 1200 (his 500 twice and my dead money). However, if I push, I offer myself protection in a way. The big stack will call my push and I now have effectively two hands all in against the shorty. This maximizes the chance that he will be eliminated. By letting it go I give the short stack the chance to become even in chips with me by beating one hand, all the while donating 40% of his stack to start the hand to the pot. I also needed to double up fast, not just to beat the short stack but to have any prayer of winning. The only drawback I can see to pushing almost any two here would be if the shortstack had folded with only t180 left and hoped that I would be eliminated. This is the main reason that I folded, but I think I should be pushing a lot wider range in this spot, as any reasonable player should put his last 180 in the pot getting over 2.5 to 1. Am I still wrong here? Why?
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  #7  
Old 09-19-2005, 01:00 PM
mosdef mosdef is offline
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Default Re: Secondary Short Stack, Already in The $$ problem

i think short stack WILL fold all but very strong hands here. you're giving him a shot at second that he didn't expect, he's likely to take it.
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  #8  
Old 09-19-2005, 01:12 PM
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Default Re: Secondary Short Stack, Already in The $$ problem

Thanks for the replies, everyone. You are correct. I must fold because I can't give the shortstack a shot at second. I was looking at his perspective from a merely pot odds perspective, and had overlooked the possibility that this may be his best shot at second. I guess this hand intrigued me because I almost pushed and if I would have I win, guarantee second, and had a shot to win it. As it happened, ss doubled up with a hand I beat and won the next big showdown. I got booted in third...Oh, well, that is just results oriented thinking. I made the correct play.

That being established, I have not gotten many suggestions for what my push range should be in this situation. Suggestions for a pushing range in this situation?
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  #9  
Old 09-19-2005, 10:37 PM
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Default Re: Secondary Short Stack, Already in The $$ problem

I estimate big stack should have gone in with top 75% of hands. Also, if you fold, you get 28% of prize fund if shorty survives and 33% if he doesn't, about equally likely; and 38% of prize pool if you go all in and win. Based on these estimates:

Push with something like A9o, A7s, KQo, KTs, 66.
Otherwise fold.
For metagame reasons, or read-based, it could vary some.
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