25-25 Pot limit HE

MHoydilla · #1 05-05-2003, 02:00 AM

This hand took place two days ago at Binions. I have 3500 in front of me and low man at the table has 1500 high man 6000 (all numbers are approx.) I am one off the button and two people limp in for 25. I look down and see J [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] and raise to 75 the button folds the BB calls and both limpers call. The flop comes down T [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] 8 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 3 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] The big blind leads out betting 150, one limper calls, one folds. The big blind would bet out here with any pair or as little as AK, I have also seen him checkraise with a set. I decide to raise, I figure I may be able to take the pot right there and most likely fold the middle man. The raise was to 925 (150 + 775) supprisingly the BB calls instantly and the limper folds almost as quickly. The turn brought the 7 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] (T [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] 8 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 3 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] ) The BB checked and I happly bet the pot. The BB informs me that he only has 1300 left but wants to think it over for a second. After about a 45 second wait he calls and says "I hope you got Aces" and flips over his 10-3 suited. I show the straight and start mentally counting my chips. Oh, thats a 3 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] ( 7 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] 8 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 3 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] ) on the river for your full house. "Nice hand sir, take it down." The river sucked, but I would enjoy reading others view on the hand and if I deserved this because I only raise to 75 preflop instead of more.

eighb · #2 05-05-2003, 02:32 AM

i think your pre flop raise is perfect, but with a different hand. J9 i toss, JTs or 87s i make this raise with. you cant make this play too often so i hate to make it with a hand that might be dominated on the straight by callers.

on the flop the question is: what is my raise more likely to get me? All in or the pot. with a flop as described i dont put the bettor on a draw i put him on a hard hand. here i feel a raise is more likely to get me all in than scooping the pot, the middle caller is VERY scary and makes the all in scenario much more likely. that said i just call here, my straight is disguised and if i hit i still hope to win a big pot. notice a call on the flop and raise on the turn will also cause your opponent to be more inclined to fold the turn (not that you want him to fold..but in retrospect...). betting all the way smells like overpair. flat calling and then jacking it up looks more like a set.

Mikey · #3 05-05-2003, 04:59 AM

sometimes you just get outdraw, that's the way the game of poker is.....don't get pissed at yourself because you were outdrawn (although many times I get disappointed and ask myself why ohh why did I ever choose to learn this game and devote so much time and energy to it.)....and don't get pissed at yourse either because you raised $75.

You played the hand fine.....you committed him to the pot as a 10 to 1 dog, I don't think the odds get much better than that.

You played the hand great, but...what sucks is....that you got outdrawn.

Greg (FossilMan) · #4 05-05-2003, 08:37 AM

I see nothing wrong with any of your decisions. I might have raised a bit less on the flop, or just flat-called the flop, but those are options. If one of them is clearly better than the others, it is not going to be distinguishable in a post. You'd have to be there and know a lot about the opposition to say which play was better.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

D.J. · #5 05-05-2003, 08:51 PM

Wow, you were playing w/ the big boys huh? Anyway, I liked the way you played the hand, the only thing I might have done differently is flat called the flop instead of raising just from personal experience where I have had a similar hand and have the guy push all in on the flop leaving me w/ a tougher decision. You could have essentially drawn for free in the hand, but chose the play it fast approach which worked out for you, and even if you call the flop and bet the turn hard, you're going to end up w/ the same result. Nice hand either way, you were just unlucky on the river, or was he unlucky on the turn? Anyway, I'll take my chances w/ the nuts and a redraw any day of the week.

-D.J.

TAFKAn · #6 05-06-2003, 02:03 AM

25-25 pot limit and the biggest stack had only 6000? That's pretty odd. I assume the game had just got underway. In a game of that size, a $2000 beat to a four outer really shouldn't even be on your radar. Once you crack 10k then that's a pot.

Not that I've ever played that high, but those blinds are pretty damn big for pot limit and a few K should be pretty easy to push in. In my experience, those stacks (1500 to 6000) are about typical for a 5-5 game or a 2-3-5 no limit game.

In other words, this pot should be irrelevant or you're playing too big.

MHoydilla · #7 05-06-2003, 03:31 AM

Well I was tad upset at the time, the pot had about 5K. About the stack sizes there were three PLO games going 2 with 25-25, and one with 50-100 blinds so most of the big money was on those tables. I dont usually play that high but fortunately it looked like no one else there ever played that high either.

34TheTruth34 · #8 05-06-2003, 06:55 PM

I don't like your preflop raise. I don't play any pot limit/no limit, so maybe I'm way off, but I would think that the same principles that apply to limit poker would apply here. This seems like a calling hand to me with which you'd like mulitway action. Not that making a play for the pot with a pot-sized raise is wrong, but I would think that the general tendency would be to see the flop cheaply with this hand and hope for lots of opponents.

Anyway, considering the flop, and your hands, I think you were destined to lose the maximum on this hand. I see no way that either you or your opponent could have gotten away from this hand. It's dissappointing and frustrating when a huge dog wins when you were such a big favorite with one card to come.

Had you not raised preflop, maybe he would have put you on the straight and not a big pair and would have folded on the turn, allowing you to win. However, that doesn't change the fact that you'd still want him to call the turn bet even though he got lucky this time.

TAFKAn · #9 05-06-2003, 10:33 PM

I don't play any pot limit/no limit, so maybe I'm way off, but I would think that the same principles that apply to limit poker would apply here.

Actually they don't. It's very different. This raise was just fine given the blinds and the stacks.

Greg (FossilMan) · #10 05-07-2003, 11:09 AM

Not really.

It's true that drawing hands need odds and implied odds to be profitable. In limit poker, you achieve those from having multiple players in the pot. In big bet poker, you don't need more than one opponent to get the big payoff, because you can win so much more than just a few multiples of the big blind.

A big part of the reason to raise with drawing hands is to disguise them. That is how you get somebody with two pair to put in 100x the big blind when they're drawing to 4 outs against your straight. They put you on the overpair because of your little 3x raise preflop, and then make their 100x mistake.

It all depends upon the opposition, and how deep everybody is stacked. If the circumstances are right, almost any play can be correct.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)