3 bet gone wrong

[ben mo]

Playing in my standard 20-40 game: good players all around, but a little too tight.

I'm on the button and a blind stealer to my right opens, so I 3 bet with Jd4c. Let's limit the discussion of this hand to the post flop play.

SB, BB and cutoff all call. It's important to know that everyone at this table basically already thinks I'm off my rocker.

Flop is Td4d4c. Cutoff bets and I raise. BB makes it 3 bets, and I smooth call -- headsup to the turn.

Turn is 6h. He checks, I bet, he check-raises. I 3-bet. He caps.

Comments?

[elysium]

hi ben mo
you're probably o.k here ben. the BB could have many hands that you beat, but T4 is a possible; so is TT. go ahead and bet the river if he checks and call any raise. the BB is playing text-book top pair late position play. don't sweat it.

[AJo Go All In]

i guess the cutoff folded when it came back to him for 2 more on the flop.

if the table is "a little too tight," then it doesn't seem like BB would have called two cold preflop with 4-something. the only thing i'd be worried about is precisely TT. i might slow down and just call his river bet (unless you hit a J or 4), but i'd guess you're good here--i'd put him on AA.

i'll ask you what happened at the tournament tomorrow, which you are certainly not winning.

[ben mo]

I called on the turn, of course. He checked the river, so I bet, and he check-raised. Of course I call.

"I have a 4" he said.
"So do I."
"With a?"
"A Jack"
"A WHAT?"
I showed my hand and he mucked.

I'm not sure I played this right on the turn. I think I may have put in one too many raises, but it turned out okay.

nice tournament, btw. did you take out Ragz?
ben

[AJo Go All In]

yeah, i took out ragz. it was down to 3 of us, i think i had about T10000, ragz had about T7000, and cj had about T3000, i'm the button and i find fittingly AJo, i make it 1000 to go, ragz calls in the big blind, flop is QJx with two hearts, he bets like 1000 into me, i call.

turn is a blank, he bets into me again, maybe 1500, i call.

river is a blank, he bets into me for most of the rest of his chips, (i think he had like T1000 left or something) and i call.

he shows some kind of raggedy heart draw or straight draw or something, says good call and i take it down. it was basically over at that point.

[mike l.]

"so I 3 bet with Jd4c. Let's limit the discussion of this hand to the post flop play."

let's not. i liked your preflop play just fine until i read this:

"SB, BB and cutoff all call. It's important to know that everyone at this table basically already thinks I'm off my rocker."

in other words they dont believe you, the blinds dont, the cutoff doesnt, youre toast. you should sit TIGHT and wait for only the best of the best hands and strangulate them with those. find out what they expect you to do/want you to do and then disappoint them. they expect and want you to 3 bet w/ Jxo and you are doing it. youre playing their game. beyond horrible.

"Flop is Td4d4c. Cutoff bets and I raise. BB makes it 3 bets, and I smooth call -- headsup to the turn."

cant imagine why you raised the flop here. you want your untrusting foes to stick around w/ any shred of hope since theyre likely drawing dead. youve represented an overpair preflop and now by raising the flop youve done so again. why are you trying to scare off all your action now that youve hit your dream flop? you especially cant play caca preflop unless you know how to fully maximize the bets you earn postflop.

"Turn is 6h. He checks, I bet, he check-raises. I 3-bet. He caps."

since i dont know anything about the bb i dont know what you should do now. is he the type who would 4 bet or just call 2 cold w/ TT from the bb in this scenario? how about T4 or 64 or 66? is he the type who would then 3 bet the flop w/ any of those hands given preceding action? could he have A4s? 4 w/ a weaker kicker? big overpair? i dont know the bb so my default play would be to call him down and expect to lose to TT.

[sizeup]

"find out what they expect you to do/want you to do and then disappoint them. they expect and want you to 3 bet w/ Jxo and you are doing it. youre playing their game."

Well said, this puts a clearer definition on a concept that had been previously floating around vaguely in my play.