Turn Screwplay for the birds?

[J_V]

Lately, I"ve been thinking that in a vacuum the turn screwplay is very rarely optimal. Dcifrths outlines why in the "Did I analyze this correctly, 100-200 post." In short, it's because the bet - 3bet line disguises your hand better and doesn't kill your action against thinking players when you have a monster and insures a bet against a weak hand or draw.

Now, you still must incorporate it in to your game once in a while, but almost exclusively for meta-game reasons. Thus, you should pick the opponents you use it against very very carefully. Piejay would be an ideal 100-200 candidate (that floating bastard). Screwplaying some random joe sitting with 1400 dollars at 100-200 probably isn't right.

Now that's not to say the screwplay bluff isn't all the rage today, with people giving it so much respect. High limit poker is much like the fashion industry in this regard.

The river screwplay is still great, because that always gets paid, and it's pretty easy to know when an opponent might value bet his mediocre holding.

[Schneids]

For the ignorant, what exactly is a "screwplay?"

[J_V]

Screwplay is a an off-tempo checkraise.

You raise AA UTG. Button Cold calls.

Flop J-10-3. You bet, Button calls.

Turn 3. You check, Button bets, you screwplay.

Notice this is much different than a normal check-raise and "says" something different as well.

[Lmn55d]

Nate the Great made a fantastic post in HUSH a few months ago about how this is usually a bad line. Anyone have the link?

[Lmn55d]

Here it is

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...v=#Post2421225

[Schneids]

So basically you do this for value when OOP against a loose passive opponent or as a semibluff vs a thinking floater (IMO the best way to defense floaters is betting all flops and if called auto c/r'ing any turn).

[Jeffage]

I agree with you. I find many more people checking behind in these spots when they used to fall for this everytime. I'd rather run off tempo checks on the river than the turn. People get more desperate at that point and some other players often valuebet light, then pay off your "confusing" checkraise. The only bene to the failed screwplay is that sometimes the check-check gets you a bet on the end when he would have folded on the turn. I find myself often getting called by King high in this scenario or 22 on a paint board where that player would have surely folded to a turn bet.

Jeff

[Pepsquad]

IMO, it's a useful weapon when sitting in early position against a post-flop field of 4+. Last night I was in a 15/30 game UTG +2 with AA. Raise pre-flop got called by MP2 (LAG which had seen 7 of the last 9 flops), called by the button, SB and BB. The flop came A 10 7. Check, Check, I bet, MP2 call, Button call, SB call BB call.

Now at this point, I’m comfortably ahead but I’m also confident the field is going to call me down. I had seen enough out of MP2 to know if I checked he WOULD bet. The turn went Check, Check, I Check, (MP2 did his job and bet behind me), call, call call, and I screwplayed which got two folds.

I don’t know. Maybe everyone’s right. Maybe by betting out, somebody at some point improves their hand to raising status, which I can 3-bet and maybe it’s a weak play to thin the field with top set on such a drawless board, but when you KNOW that someone will bet if you “give up and check” the screwplay greatly increases odds of winning at showdown.

[DpR]

I make this play a lot and like it. OF course it is important to only make the play on certain boards. Surprisingly I tend to get paid off on it a lot. Also, the obvious reason that it is not bad when people start checking behind when you bet the flop and check the turn - this is rather valuable.

However, I certainly would not make this play agasint a loose passive. Its the 25/17/2's that cannot resist betting here - then also convince themselves that I am bluffing them and call down with A high anyway.

[Mempho]

Yeh, I like this play a lot...I just didn't know there was a term for it.