Thoughts on Rebuys?

[suprblah]

I played at a home tourney with a few strangers last nite. I don't like how their blind structure went:

For a $10 buyin, we each recieved 5000 in chips (20x100 + 4x500's + 1x1000) At a 6-handed table, that's 30,000 chips in play. Level 1 was 100/200. The blinds raised every 15 mins (slow) with UNLIMITED REBUYS for the first hour.

First of all, I think we had a few too many chips to start with. At a short handed table, the "M factor" as somebody else posted should be a bit lower. But I went with it and played a TAG early cuz I could afford to wait. I planned on playing a tight, solid game cuz rebuys cost $10 and I didn't plan on rebuying. (I'm cheap).

But those OTHER guys didn't care about money and took advantage of rebuys. With the blinds low, those guys just waited until they hit any pockets or AT-AK and went to a race. There was no real deterrent for busting, if they did, they'd just rebuy and repeat. This lead to several busts in level 1, 2 and 3, throwing the chip stacks out of wack..

I played solid and didn't even rebuy once, I still made it to the bubble (3rd). I actually busted 2 guys, but they just rebought. And after they rebought, there were automatically short-stacked, and just gave away chips to the chip leader, who had an ENORMOUS lead bullying all the donks and their rebuys.

After 60 mins when rebuys finally stopped, the blinds were high and I was 2nd place behind a HUGE chip leader through no fault of my own. It was something ridiculous like 15:5:2. In total there must've been at least 5 rebuys, most of which had went to the chip leader who was in a position to prey on the donks.

So anyway, I'm never going back there again. Maybe I'm bitter for having busted on the bubble, but still, I think my complaints against unlimited rebuys are valid. I'm don't play holdem at B&M casinos, so I don't know how common rebuys are. Do you guys have any thoughts on the pro's and cons of rebuying in SNG tournaments?

[citanul]

i'm so confused. your post makes very little sense.

to start with: don't play rebuy structure tournaments in general unless you are willing and able to rebuy.

alright, for some other stuff:

you say that "But those OTHER guys didn't care about money and took advantage of rebuys."

but then later you say, "In total there must've been at least 5 rebuys."

that's really not very many rebuys.

next:

you say "those guys just waited until they hit any pockets or AT-AK and went to a race. There was no real deterrent for busting, if they did, they'd just rebuy and repeat."

first, this doesn't jive with "In total there must've been at least 5 rebuys." again, but mainly, it doesn't jive with:

"to the chip leader, who had an ENORMOUS lead bullying all the donks and their rebuys."

the point of a rebuy game is that you should be able to be bullied during the rebuy section. which is why your strategy shouldn't work in the long run, and why my original piece of advice is important, don't play such games if you're not willing and able to take advantage of the rebuys. the tightest you want to play a rebuy game in general is as tight as you play a cash game, which shoudn't be all that tight usually. playing super tight and scared is just bad rebuy poker.

but mostly, your story is inconsistent. if the other guys were willing to race constantly, they couldn't be bullied by the chip leader.

again, your complaint of being in 2nd "through no fault of your own" is sort of just silly. amongst other things, you didn't mix it up during the rebuy. there was more you could have done to accumulate chips, and you didn't do it. so it was in part at least, through fault of your own.

anyway, i think you can get my sentiment towards rebuy sngs in general from this. i think they're dumb, but if you're going to play them, you should have some money in your pocket to rebuy, and be willing to take it out.

i'm sorry you won't be going back to the game. however, if you do go back, you might want to suggest that instead of having it be a true tournament structure, they just make it a cash game, possibly a cash game with rising blinds or sometihng, but just not with the fixed percentage payouts and whatnot.

citanul

[suprblah]

OK, maybe my story was a bit confusing. But you are very right, I should NOT play these gmes if I don't have the cash to take advantage of them...

What I meant to say was, for a SNG, the unlimited rebuys eliminate any "risk of ruin" for players. Usually, with blinds 100/200, two guys with near 1:1 chipstacks at 5000 wouldn't put their tournament life on the line. BUT, this happened early and it happened often. So RIGHT AWAY, somebody has 10,000 chips, while the rest have 5. And then the guy who rebought also has 5000 again. Later on, the rebuyer would come in immediately shortstacked, and more easily give away his chips to the chip leader (who can afford to be agressive).

So, what would normally be a standard SNG without rebuys has become a non-standard game, and "normally" solid play has become a disadvantage. Do you agree with that sentiment or am I off-base?

[johnny005]

I'm alittle confused with this as well. If your smart enough to notice this stuff why arent you in there mixing it up as well. If you figure your a better player than your opponents I think you should be spending the money and taking advantage of your superior play.

[suprblah]

I had no idea that they'd have rebuys, plus I'm actually a beginning player. When I got there, I played pretty good IMO, but I felt their 2nd and 3rd chances hurt me. Plus I'm poor, they're not. They don't mind rebuying five times to win one game. So all this I realized after the fact, and now I'm not going back. I'm just curious to see what other people think of rebuys, and how it changes strategy.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
What I meant to say was, for a SNG, the unlimited rebuys eliminate any "risk of ruin" for players.

So, what would normally be a standard SNG without rebuys has become a non-standard game, and "normally" solid play has become a disadvantage. Do you agree with that sentiment or am I off-base?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, these sentiments are right.

Risk of Ruin is gone, if you're willing ot rebuy, which you must be able to do, because otherwise, you are the only guy at the table fearing ruin. Which means you're passing up spots that you shouldn't (ie, ANY edge should be taken in the rebuy phase, and many will argue you should willingly take bad gambles during rebuys as well). This is the same for mtt rebuys and sng rebuys.

"normal" sng strategy is i guess what you could apply for post rebuy period in such a game, but not until then. until then you must be willing to play rebuy poker.

you seem to understand what's going on, but as the other poster pointed out if you understand this you have to be willing to mix it up during hte rebuy phase.

citanul

[suprblah]

Thanks, that was a great answer. Also, you mentioned earlier that you don't like rebuys either right? I mean, in a normal game you don't want to put money in when behind, but in rebuys it seems like you suggested you might have to once in a while. That means %showdown won will drop, and as a good player in normal SNG's you want that high cuz it shows you're often ahead in critical situations, right? I thinkr rebuys might screw up my learning process, so no more for me lol.

Anyways your answers were so good that I guess this thread is effectively over. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I think it's important to note that taking the highest payout is not the ultimate goal of a rebuy; it's earning the most money, which means taking the highest payout with the fewest rebuys. Of course, the fact that there's no risk of ruin should change your play, but clearly (if you had infinite money) pushing every hand and then rebuying if you lost wouldn't be optimal play. If there are 10 players and 10 rebuys, but you only buy in once, you only need to come in the money half as often as you would if there were no rebuys. This isn't optimal strategy, but I think it's important to note, and you're missing it.