low m tourny situation

[jomatty]

party super thurs
blinds 300-600 and im on the button with 5400.
folded to me and i have 83o. with an m of 6 is this a situation where where pushing or folding is mandatory (assuming no reads on blind players)
what if i had 4000 or 6000, where do you guys make the choice between moving in or folding.
i have trouble deciding in some of the low m but not terrible q decisions.
matty

I would fold.. your M is still 6 and the blinds already passed you, I'd like to play with something of moderate value here... And depending on the stacks in the SB/BB.. A big stack wouldn't mind calling, a small stack might make a stand, and of course a player with good cards will call you too... Plus it might look to them like you're trying to steal.. +900 to your stack isn't worth the whole tourney

[nath]

what size are the blind's stacks?
any information on their tendencies to defend blinds or call all-ins?

[jomatty]

they both have me comforatably covered but are not huge stacks.
i just was moved to this table and have zero info on tendencies.
matty

[rockythecat99]

This is a clear fold. Go back and re read HOH2. I think a lot of people are misusing the information in that book.

[illegit]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a clear fold. Go back and re read HOH2. I think a lot of people are misusing the information in that book.

[/ QUOTE ]
I read the part where it's +EV to push T8 from something like 2 off the button wit an M of 7. Now we're folded to OTB with an M of 6 with 83 (better position, worse cards, more desparate chip count). Doesn't sound a ton different. Also read the part about first-in vigorish and red-orange zone play. Sure you read it?

I push every time here. You still have FE. You won't get many chances to steal as good as being folded to OTB or SB when you're a short stack. Others will be stealing your blinds so if you don't you're asking to lose. Stealing blinds with this low an M is absolutely essential as the rewards are exponential when you finally do get a chance to double up. Everything here argues for a push EXCEPT your cards, which happen to be the least important element of this whole sittuation. Easy, easy push.

[zoobird]

I should know this, but how much of an underdog are you if you get called by an 'average' hand with one card higher than yours and one in between them - say Q7o? How about 2 overcards - say KTo?

[rockythecat99]

Not easy at all. Go reread the whole section even the example of red zone play. Here he says he doesnt push with hands like 24 or 23 even with an M of 3. Why? Because they do horrible in a showdown. 83o is a horrible push in this position. The cards matter in this position becuase you are not desperate yet. Like I said go reread HOH2 you guys are completely missing the point here.

Btw for T8o push to be +EV you have to have a good read on your opponents and make sure they wont call you with Axs or other marginal hands. Again go reread this section you guys are going to lose a ton if you keep misusing his ideas.

[betgo]

There is no ante on Party, so easy fold. I am pretty aggressive and would push with about 1/3 of my hands in this situation. 83o doesn't qualify. You have 9xBB with no ante, so your M is 6 and you do not want to push with junk.

[illegit]

[ QUOTE ]
Not easy at all. Go reread the whole section even the example of red zone play. Here he says he doesnt push with hands like 24 or 23 even with an M of 3. Why? Because they do horrible in a showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]
Of course, because with an M of 3 you have little-to-no FE. With an M of 6 you have plenty. That's the whole point. You do this while you still have FE before you're an M of 3 at which point no one will fold to your pushes.
[ QUOTE ]

83o is a horrible push in this position. The cards matter in this position becuase you are not desperate yet. Like I said go reread HOH2 you guys are completely missing the point here.

[/ QUOTE ]
M of 6 = orange-borderline red zone = definitely desparate. In addition your opportunities to capitalize on first-in vigorish (basically your only weapon with this chip stack) will be few and far between. YOU re-read these sections. you've completely misinterpretted them.
[ QUOTE ]

Btw for T8o push to be +EV you have to have a good read on your opponents and make sure they wont call you with Axs or other marginal hands.

[/ QUOTE ]
In that situation there was a mix of tight and semi-loose players behind him, and there were 4 of them. We have only 2 players here and no reason to assume they'll call a big all-in bet with anything less than standard calling hands (AJ+, any pair maybe). So the situation is more favorable than the T8 hand in the book, with again the only less favorable element being the cards. Which is not nearly unfavorable enough to pass up a great opportunity to go from of M of 6 to M of 7. Doesn't look like much but when you double up to M of 14 instead of M of 12 you start to see how important it is. Get the chips. All of them. By any means necessary. Folding here won't do it.