Turn raise? Correct fold?

mr_perry84 · #1 09-04-2005, 12:39 PM

Turn raise dodgy? No info on button, but bb is tight aggressive

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, Hero checks, Button bets, BB calls, MP1 calls, Hero raises, Button calls, BB calls, MP1 folds.

Turn: (7.75 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, Button calls, BB 3-bets, Hero folds, Button calls.

River: (15.75 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Button calls.

Final Pot: 17.75 BB

brazilio · #2 09-04-2005, 01:00 PM

I don't often raise when a previously passive player comes alive and all I've got is TPTK, especially on that turn card.

#3 09-04-2005, 01:06 PM

Why not bet flop? If BT is unknown we can't be sure he'll bet.

5 outs on the turn, 15bb pot with BT in there as well... including the times you're dead here I fold to the 3-bet.

But I would call the turn. He's probably not donking with a J in hand. And he's leading turn after you c/r'ed the field.

jt1 · #4 09-04-2005, 01:16 PM

What made you think that button would definitely bet the flop?

I'd raise BB if I didn't check raise the flop, but a flop check raise made by the PFR indicates a better hand than TPTK. I think his turn lead was tight passive, but I'd still call it down. If he had went for the CR then calling that followed by a river fold unimproved would be my line.

In conclusion, be weary of a guy who takes the lead after you check raised the flop.

RiverTheNuts · #5 09-04-2005, 01:19 PM

I definately am not raising the turn here. Whoops... if donk bet out and not TAG im folding, I misread the hand...

I call down from the turn if TAG leads it

Dagger78 · #6 09-04-2005, 01:45 PM

Ask yourself what is the BB trying to accomplish by leading the turn? If he's a thinking TAG, he's trying to get you to raise so he can 3-bet, otherwise he would have just check-raised the turn.

Call down from his turn lead.

TheHip41 · #7 09-04-2005, 03:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Turn raise dodgy? No info on button, but bb is tight aggressive

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, Hero checks, Button bets, BB calls, MP1 calls, Hero raises, Button calls, BB calls, MP1 folds.

Turn: (7.75 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, Button calls, BB 3-bets, Hero folds, Button calls.

River: (15.75 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Button calls.

Final Pot: 17.75 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

What a horrible hand.

You raise preflop, good.

You flop TPTK, and you check? Um, ok.

So you c/r, fine, nice FPS.

Then you get donk bet, and raise, ok, interesting, then you fold to a 3 bet?

Could you explain your thinking on this hand. I see other donks do things like this that make no sense, and I've always wanted to ask them why they suck.

mr_perry84 · #8 09-04-2005, 04:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Turn raise dodgy? No info on button, but bb is tight aggressive

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, Hero checks, Button bets, BB calls, MP1 calls, Hero raises, Button calls, BB calls, MP1 folds.

Turn: (7.75 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, Button calls, BB 3-bets, Hero folds, Button calls.

River: (15.75 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Button calls.

Final Pot: 17.75 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

What a horrible hand.

You raise preflop, good.

You flop TPTK, and you check? Um, ok.

So you c/r, fine, nice FPS.

Then you get donk bet, and raise, ok, interesting, then you fold to a 3 bet?

Could you explain your thinking on this hand. I see other donks do things like this that make no sense, and I've always wanted to ask them why they suck.

[/ QUOTE ]

I Feel cr flop maximises my expectation does it not on flop? As the turn was not an overcard i felt the raise was correct (at the time) to maximise value and at very least to knock out the opponent to my right and thus increase my winning chances. The fact that the tag 3 bet plus the other opponent called then put me in a very vulnerable and possibly impossible position to recover from so i folded.

Little less of the 'suck' thing pls - i'm after constructuve critism/advice not insults.

TheHip41 · #9 09-04-2005, 04:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I Feel cr flop maximises my expectation does it not on flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

On a flop of J9x, when you have AJ.

I have a feeling you don't know what you are talking about.

It's four handed. You have TPTK, a good, but not great hand. You cannot afford to slowplay this.

You don't know the button will bet.

If the button bets, the donks will call in between you before you can c/r, so you aren't trying to protect your hand.

If you have JJ and the flop comes J9x, I can understand this play a little more, but, your AJ is so vuneralbe right now, you absolutely have to bet the flop.

I'm not saying you would have won the hand with a flop bet, because you will bet, button calls, tag calls and either catches his hand, or bet 3-bets with a set or whatever he has.

I just don't think your hand is good enough to slowplay on this flop, which is exactly what you are doing.

Depalma · #10 09-04-2005, 05:22 PM

let's take results out of the equation for a minute and disregard what the BB might have had.

When you checked, you were risking giving a hand that might have limped like 87s or Ax of spades a free card and the way the board played out it may have cost you a pot. It may have made no difference in this case, but it will at some point in the future cost you a pot. If you had bet, they would have been making a mistake to call you. Luckily, the button did bet and nobody got free cards. I say luckily because you said you had no information on the button player so you could not have been certain of getting this result.

Also, since you are now check-raising the player to your immediate left, everyone that has already called for one bet only needs to call for one bet more.

With a good but vulnerable hand like TPTK, hand protection should be your first priority. In both cases, you actually did everything you could to make it correct for others to beat you as your check raise just built a bigger pot giving players more correct pot odds to chase you down.

If you own Small Stakes Hold'em, you may want to reread the section on Hand Protection. If you do not own it, you may want to look into acquiring it.

The couple of extra bets a check-raise might get you here is not worth risking an entire pot.

You know you misplayed the hand and you are seeking advice, so that puts you ahead of a lot of other players right there.