5/10, JTs at a great table

[nichtgut]

Hi
Last night I was playing on-line. I was sitting at a 5-10 table that was the best I've been at for a long time, even if the site I was playing at is full of fish.
Flops with 7-8 players were more the rule than the exception. People were all loose and pretty aggressive pre-flop, and then they'd slow down post-flop.

So I had J [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] T [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] in MP. UTG folds, UTG+1 raises all in. This player was perhaps the worst at the table, playing exactly every hand and raising exactly everything PF. He was probably on tilt too, having lost about 400 $ in the last 15 minutes or so. UTG+2 cold-calls, EMP cold-calls. I cold-call as well, knowing for sure that people will come in behind me. And the CO and the SB call as well.
We're seeing the flop 6-handed for two bets each (13 SB).
Flop comes A [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] .
UTG+2 checks, EMP checks, I check with the intention of folding. Question: is it a call for 1 SB if say 2 players are in before it comes back to me with the straight flush draw? CO checks and the SB checks as well, IOW it's checked around.
Turn T [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] .
UTG+2 checks, EMP checks. I think for about 0,8 seconds and bet. I figure I could be ahead, and if I am, I don't want overcards to get a free card. As I said before the game was very passive post-flop and people were playing very weakly post-flop. Another thing I'm unsure about is how the all-in effects my play? I wouldn't have minded getting it HU with him right there. CO folds, SB folds, UTG+2 folds, EMP calls. I'm quite happy with this.

River is a Q [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] . Not my favorite choice. EMP checks and I check also. He shows 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] J [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] and the pot gets pushed to me. I don't know what UTG+1 had, perhaps 2 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 3 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] .

The things I'd like responses about are in bold .

Thanks a lot!

Nicht Gut

[nichtgut]

Question: is it a call for 1 SB if say 2 players are in before it comes back to me with the straight flush draw?

I of course meant my backdoor straight flush draw.

[Zag]

Considering a call based on needed runner-runner: If the turn gives you one of the cards you want, what is that "worth" to you in pot equity? I'll assume just the flush possibility, and we'll use the same number for the straight. This is not quite accurate because a straight draw has only 8 outs (or just 4), but the are other outs (like running tens) which we aren't counting at all, so it's pretty close. (Also, there is always the possibilty of hitting one of these hands and losing anyway, but we'll ignore that for now.)

After the turn adds to your flush, there will be 16 SB and you will have 9 outs. Assume you'll need to call 1 BB to see 10 BB once it gets to you, and we'll further assume implied payoff of 4 more BB if you hit (a bet to you, and you raise). This is the best you can hope for. So you are looking at a 9/46 chance to win 14 BB, or a pot equity of 2.7 BB, or about 5.5 SB.

So, consider hitting the turn to mean getting to your draw that we already established is "worth" 5.5 SB. There are four 8's, four Q's, and 8 more spades, for 16/47 chance -- about 1/3 chance for a 1/5.5 payoff. However, this is with huge plans for implied odds, so you have to be pretty sure that the others will bet and call as you need them to. Also, this doesn't take into account hitting you draw and losing, which is very expensive.

Bottom line is that it is close, slightly positive, but high varience play, and therefore only suitable against passive calling stations.

[Robk]

"I cold-call as well, knowing for sure that people will come in behind me."

If there's ever a time, this is it, especially since the raise doesn't mean much. I personally don't think there's ever a time, but many players who are better than me disagree. If I remember correctly, in his book Feeney even recommends openraising it UTG in game conditions like this.

"Question: is it a call for 1 SB if say 2 players are in before it comes back to me with the straight flush draw?"

Closing the action it might be close. With players left to act, I think it's a pretty clear fold. If this pot were big enough for me to call, it would probably be big enough for me to bet the flop myself.

"I think for about 0,8 seconds and bet. I figure I could be ahead, and if I am, I don't want overcards to get a free card."

I would bet too.

"Another thing I'm unsure about is how the all-in effects my play?"

He's liable to have any 2 cards. I would play him as a random hand.

"EMP checks and I check also."

I would have to know the player a bit to squeeze out a value bet here.

[Louie Landale]

Even though JTs is a drawing hand (and prefers implied odds), its still good enough to play in THIS game where you implied odds aren't all that great since so much money goes in PreFlop. Fine call even if you expect it to get capped. Probably chuck T9s.

If someone bets the flop indicating an Ace, your back-door flush draw is worth about 1 out as is your back-door straight. So at best you have a hand with about 2.5 outs. That's probably not good enough to call a flop bet.

On the turn: in America, we use "decimal points" not "decimal commas", so its "0.8 seconds". Sheeeesh. Anyway, it looks like an easy bet to me. You don't have to win the pot often for this bet to pay off big. The all-in player should perhaps affect your play theoretically, but not practically since the opponents are sure to ignore it and your hand is strong enough to show it down profitably. I wouldn't bother stealing in this spot (lets say you had 87s) since you still need to hit something to beat the all-in player.

On the river: checking is fine, but by no means a no-brainer. There are lots of players you can profitably bet-for-value against, and others you can profitably bluff.

The key to this hand is your turn bet. Most players will routinely check but betting is correct.

- Louie

[nichtgut]

Hi Robk!
Thanks for your answer. I would also like to hear your opinion how the all-in player effects my play from the economic point of view. Does it make any difference that there is no side pot for example?

/Nicht gut

[nichtgut]

Hi Louie
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
in America, we use "decimal points" not "decimal commas", so its "0.8 seconds".

[/ QUOTE ]
I know, and as a swedish programmer that has caused me lots of headaches in the past.

Thanks for answering!

/Nicht Gut