Do I have some obligation here?

[MtSmalls]

I came across a new situation for me last night that I did not understand at the time, but think I have reasoned out, which in turn becomes a philosophical question. Help me out please.

Playing a 2 table, Limit Holdem Sit and Go last night at Stars. Tournament pays 4 places, and we are down to five. T27000 in play, and I am the chip leader with roughly 10K. Blinds are 200/400 and the limit is 400/800. On the button I get A2o. Its folded to me and I notice that the small blind has about 800 left and I want to isolate him, or at worst straight steal the blinds. I raise, the SB raises all in (an extra T20 or something) and BB calls as do I. Flop came down 10-2-10, giving me two pair. There is a little over $2400 in the middle and if I can take it down, I have the tourney in my pocket. So I bet into the dry side pot, basically forcing the BB to fold. The turn is a J, which incidentally pairs the SB's J-7 (or something similar) and I lose the pot.

I start getting ragged on by the BB and a couple of other players for misplaying the hand, which I didn't get at first, but later (after the tourney was over) I believe they were upset that I didn't let the BB stay in, in order to give the rest of the table, including the BB a better chance of running down the all-in player and getting everyone into the money. The BB incidentally was the second smallest stack and did end up finishing out of the money.

Do I have some obligation to help everyone else get into the money? I don't think so. I made the right move pre-flop in my mind, had the best hand on the flop, got turned and the move failed. I didn't really want to give the second smallest stack a shot at that pot if I could help it, so I didn't.

Is this a case of sour grapes from the BB or was it really in my best interest to let the BB stay to help run down the SB?-

Thoughts? Comments?

[ohkanada]

I think betting was fine. First you are the chip leader. If the SB doesn't get busted, it really doesn't hurt you. The fact that it hurts someone else is their problem. Secondly you do have two pair with an ace kicker. So you are not "bluffing" although you don't have much.

Now if you are a middle stack then it makes more sense in checking and trying to have the 2 of you bust the SB out.

Ken Poklitar

[B-Man]

Your only obligation it to play the hand in a manner that is most beneficial to you. I laugh when I hear players like the BB and the others in your game whine, bitch and moan in these situations. Sure there will be times when it makes sense to check it down, but you didn't feel this was one of those times, and you played accordingly. Don't even give your obligations to the others a second thought, play it in the way that you think will benefit you the most, whether that means betting into the side pot or checking.

[Moose]

I've made plays like this with as little as Ace high if the player went all-in preflop from the blinds and the board looks extra raggedy as it did in this case. Many times the BB folds, and my A high wins unimproved against a SB that went all-in with some kind of suited connectors.

Sure, on occasion a card hits that makes the SB a hand that would have hit the BB. Such is life.

The only obligation you have is to act in your own best interests. You need to know when it is proper to not bet into the dry pot - such as when you have an unpaired hand that cannot win a showdown - but this was clearly not a case. You are in the lead and your hand needs protecting and fast.

Plus as ohkanada points out, you are the chip leader, so in fact, having small stacks survive and tread water is (in my opinion) good for you. If they aren't going bust to you, you don't want them going bust at all [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

M.

[FeliciaLee]

I agree with all of the comments. According to TPAP, as the chip lead you did the right thing. And like David says, "checking it down" to try to bump out the all-in is somewhat questionable ethically anyway.

[Moose]

The difference between outright collusion and making good plays (IE I read you for a big hand in NL HE with your puny raise, so with AA in the BB, I make a puny reraise, designed to sucker people in knowing you will stick it all-in preflop) involves whether each person honestly is acting in their own best interestes. Giving up on your best interests to help someone stay in is wrong.

M.

[ohkanada]

One additional note. I believe Daniel Negreanu wrote a 2 part article on when and when not to bet in this type of situation. You can check card players web site for the articles.

Ken Poklitar

[RollaJ]

Daniel Negreanu wrote a 2 part article on when and when not to bet in this type of situation
Daniels artcle was about bluffing into a dry (empty) side pot, not about a steal raise.


He thought he had the best hand, why not raise.... they should have folded!

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

That's exactly what the poster got ragged about. He bet into the dry side pot and drove out the big blind.

[MtSmalls]

Thanks for all your comments. I did read the article when it was published, which is what sparked my thought process, albeit after the tourney was over. I think the initial question was poorly worded, I guess I was asking more if there was a strategic advantage for me, rather than an obligation. I think this discussion has settled it for me, that I did what was in my best interest.

BTW from Dan N.'s article: (part II)
The important thing to consider when making this bet is whether or not your hand has a legitimate shot at beating the all-in player. In this case, a desperate man put his last few chips in, knowing he’d be the big blind on the next deal. There is a myriad of hands that your A-J high (In my case flopped two pair) could beat in that spot. True, others may have a pair or a better ace, but so what? Why should you care which player goes out on the bubble, when it’s all but a certainty that it won’t be you? By getting them out, all you have to do is beat one random hand (rather than three) for a chance to win an $8,500 pot.

Thanks again. See you on the tourney circuit