An explanation to NOT push preflop..

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
4 players left in sng...blinds at 100/200

Hero 1865
villian 2085
other 6110
other 3440

Hero in BB dealt QJo

2 folds, sb limps

flop is 5h As Qh

sb pushes all in....hero calls

Hero shows QJ
sb shows 10 7

Turn 10

river 7

[/ QUOTE ]
i have recently slowed down on my mad pushing from the bb to a small blind complete. earlier in my life you could not find a more aggro person in this spot. however, people started limp calling my shoves with hands as bad as K7. effectively 'trapping' with K7. idiots.

also.. why is everyone so scared to play a flop? i mean.. does it really suck that bad to check here and take a flop? QJo isnt exactly the greatest hand aipf. take a flop, let him lost everything with his godamned K7 on my J72 flop. also.. you could argue that QJ is a good heads up FLOP hand, a hand you dont mind seeing a flop with. i duno, i just hate betting 5x the pot preflop now heads up. i dont mind taking a flop off and winning the pot with minimal risk, or taking the slight loss.

now listen, to all you naysayers, i say this: IM NOT SAYING DONT PUSH PREFLOP. im offering an objective view at an alternative play. the much underused 'check'. old raptor shoved all day. new raptor sees extra ev in taking a flop. try it out, might end up liking it. holla

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
4 players left in sng...blinds at 100/200

Hero 1865
villian 2085
other 6110
other 3440

Hero in BB dealt QJo

2 folds, sb limps

flop is 5h As Qh

sb pushes all in....hero calls

Hero shows QJ
sb shows 10 7

Turn 10

river 7

[/ QUOTE ]
i have recently slowed down on my mad pushing from the bb to a small blind complete. earlier in my life you could not find a more aggro person in this spot. however, people started limp calling my shoves with hands as bad as K7. effectively 'trapping' with K7. idiots.

also.. why is everyone so scared to play a flop? i mean.. does it really suck that bad to check here and take a flop? QJo isnt exactly the greatest hand aipf. take a flop, let him lost everything with his godamned K7 on my J72 flop. also.. you could argue that QJ is a good heads up FLOP hand, a hand you dont mind seeing a flop with. i duno, i just hate betting 5x the pot preflop now heads up. i dont mind taking a flop off and winning the pot with minimal risk, or taking the slight loss.

now listen, to all you naysayers, i say this: IM NOT SAYING DONT PUSH PREFLOP. im offering an objective view at an alternative play. the much underused 'check'. old raptor shoved all day. new raptor sees extra ev in taking a flop. try it out, might end up liking it. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this too, but not when they runner runner on me...This was awful raptor, choose your spots better next time..
[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[TheSalche]

in position with 9xBB behind with a QJo hand, which is a flop hand as you say ... checking from the BB is a great play ... you could argue the same for QK, JK and JA ... those mediocre hands that are probably ahead preflop, but not by that much ... take a free flop and see if you can get an opponent to bluff at it cause he thinks you're holding junk

I agree that QJo, and all other connectors for that matter, are a great hand to see the flop with HU. My problem is that HU short stacked, it's often best to be first to act, especially covered on the bubble. That's why I don't think we want to push this preflop.

Example:

Option 1:
Hero is SB
Hero completes with QJo
Villain checks

Flop: KA2

Hero pushes
Villain folds

Option 2:
Hero is BB
Villain completes
Hero checks his QJo

Flop: KA2

Villain pushes
Hero folds

IMHO, it's dangerous to see a flop HU short stacked and in position, especially when covered.

[ZeroPointMachine]

I like this play because it tells the SB that he can see a cheap flop. Often this leads him to make this same limp later when the blinds are much more significant and you can step on his throat. Obviously the circumstances neccesary for this to happen won't fall into place every tourney, but in the long run I think it is very profitable.

[ QUOTE ]
in position with 9xBB behind with a QJo hand, which is a flop hand as you say ... checking from the BB is a great play ... you could argue the same for QK, JK and JA ... those mediocre hands that are probably ahead preflop, but not by that much ... take a free flop and see if you can get an opponent to bluff at it cause he thinks you're holding junk

[/ QUOTE ]

Wonderful. You're on the bubble covered with AJo, you check your BB to trap, flop comes 792 two-suited and villain pushes. You're only making a pair 1/3 of the time, and (without ICMing it) you can't even call if you the flop comes 9T2 when you've got QJo and you think your outs are clean. You want the blinds here, IMHO.

[ QUOTE ]
I like this play because it tells the SB that he can see a cheap flop. Often this leads him to make this same limp later when the blinds are much more significant and you can step on his throat. Obviously the circumstances neccesary for this to happen won't fall into place every tourney, but in the long run I think it is very profitable.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do agree with this argument though.

[TheSalche]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
in position with 9xBB behind with a QJo hand, which is a flop hand as you say ... checking from the BB is a great play ... you could argue the same for QK, JK and JA ... those mediocre hands that are probably ahead preflop, but not by that much ... take a free flop and see if you can get an opponent to bluff at it cause he thinks you're holding junk

[/ QUOTE ]

Wonderful. You're on the bubble covered with AJo, you check your BB to trap, flop comes 792 two-suited and villain pushes. You're only making a pair 1/3 of the time, and (without ICMing it) you can't even call if you the flop comes 9T2 when you've got QJo and you think your outs are clean. You want the blinds here, IMHO.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not a trap so much as it is a way to see a cheap flop. What if the SB is trying to trap you with QQ or KK? You push into him from BB and he calls it, boom you're out on the bubble when you could've gotten away from the hand.

[valenzuela]

I think the real problem comes when you decide to see a flop with players yet to act, deciding to see a flop when ure on the BB is ok..even if you have to call a min-bet is ok( for instance with 10x the BB and 77)

[Freudian]

Turn should have been a J and river a K. That is the way it works where I play.