How much gamble is too much? (two Legends hands)

[Tapin]

I play tournaments too tight, and I'm trying to work on spots where I could gamble a bit more. Any comments on these hands?

Hand 1: I've just arrived at this table and seen less than a full round. I've got a medium-sized stack at the table (~22k in chips), and the guy on my right is loose preflop. I don't have reads on anyone else yet.

150/300/50. Ten handed. Hero is SB with 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG Villain (Can Kim Hua) calls, 2 folds, MP2 calls, LP1 calls, 2 folds, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop (5 players, pot is 2000): 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero bets 800, Villain raises to 1600, 3 folds, Hero calls 800.

Turn (2 players, 5200): 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Hero checks, Villain bets 2000, Hero calls.

River (2 players, 9200): 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Hero checks, Villain bets 4200, Hero calls.

Hand 2: It's now an hour later and I've chipped back up slightly to about 18k. I've only seen two flops, one of which I took down after pushing on a drawless flop (my opponent folded). UTG (~28k chips) hasn't been too involved, and hasn't shown any hands down. MP2 (~14k chips) limped a few times and folded to flop bets. SB (~8k chips) was the guy I pegged as loose preflop, and that's still the case an hour later.

150/300/50. Ten handed. Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG raises to 1100, 2 folds, MP2 calls 1100, 4 folds, SB calls 1100, Hero calls 1100.

Flop (4 players, pot is 4900): K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
SB checks, Hero bets 3000, UTG raises to 8000, 2 folds, Hero raises to 16225 all-in.

I hate the preflop limp in hand two, but I'm not sure whether pushing (representing a flush, but possibly with the best hand anyway) was a terrible mistake or simply a reasonable time to "be willing to die in order to live."

Comments?

[SossMan]

oh, god, you gotta raise preflop in hand 2. squeeeeeeze it.

[Tapin]

Yeah, I know -- I should've raised to about (at least) 4k. And since I expected the SB to call a raise no matter what, 5k might've not been so bad.

The only explanation I can offer was that, over ten hours into play, it was over twice as long as my longest poker session ever, and on top of that I must've gone temporarily insane (for the duration of the hand). Obviously, my poker stamina needs lots of work.

Having said that, what are my options when the flop comes king-high monotone? Fold to the reraise? Call and hope for a non-diamond turn? (Then what?) Utter the f-bomb and give myself a ten-minute penalty?

[MLG]

I put in a 3rd raise in hand 1. Given the preflop limpfest CKH can put in a raise here with a lot of hands that he doesnt want to play a big pot with (JJ/1010/99/88/A6s). I prefer check-calling the flop to betting out and calling the raise. Both ways you have decided not to really semi-bluff and to make your hand to win a big pot. Being passive keeps the pot smaller, and allows you to call a turn bet with less damage to your stack. After you just call, the turn card is awful for you. If he had a set you are drawing dead. If he had an overpair you just lost 3 outs. Its small enough that you still have to call, but im wary. Consquently im blocking for about 3k on the river. If he was getting frisky with a middle overpair he will check behind on the river, and it will be very hard for him to raise without having you crushed. Of course, Im usually already all-in with my top-pair+straight on the flop so its kind of academic.

As for hand 2, I think you are deep enough preflop to reraise and still be able to get away from it if UTG pushes. Just calling puts you in a brutal situation. The pot is big and you have a pretty dangerous reverse implied odds hand. When villain makes that raise its very very unlikely that he's folding. Its also unlikely he has the nuts (AQ/AJ of diamonds). My gut is that you are still in real trouble against AA, or getting freerolled by AK with the A of diamonds. Given that in my opinion you are at best hoping to win half the pot, I'm folding here when you get raised.

[Tapin]

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I prefer check-calling the flop to betting out and calling the raise. Both ways you have decided not to really semi-bluff and to make your hand to win a big pot. Being passive keeps the pot smaller.

[/ QUOTE ]

This comment got me thinking -- I'm not exactly sure how to play a small pot. I mean, I can't figure out the sequence of events that results in a small pot to begin with.

Conventional wisdom (which wears a green BoSox hat) suggests a typical preflop raise of approximately 3x the BB. After that, assuming a caller, a probe bet of 1/3rd to 1/2 the pot or a continuation bet of 1/2 to 3/4ths of the pot is typically in order. That's a ~11ish BB pot even before the flop call, if any. Conversely, if you're going to limp, you typically want it to be in a multiway pot, which ends up about the same once someone's bet the flop.

When you're talking about the difference between an M of 10 and 20 being the difference between cruising and looking over your shoulder, it seems like "small pots" are fairly tough to come by.

I think I might be approaching this with a limit player's perspective -- keep betting until you get raised -- only in NL the bet size keeps getting bigger. Seems I'll need to find Jane to get me off this crazy thing.

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Of course, Im usually already all-in with my top-pair+straight on the flop so its kind of academic.

[/ QUOTE ]
Was this facetious, or would you really consider raising ~21k into a pot of 4600?

[ QUOTE ]
As for hand 2...

[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks, I can see the reasoning behind the fold now. I think my thoughts were clouded by just how crippled I was going to be (low "orange zone", but I think I was thinking I was going to be in the "yellow zone") if I folded, plus my general inability to get away from a made hand, even if one of the cardinal sins of NL is going broke with one pair.

[MLG]

[ QUOTE ]
This comment got me thinking -- I'm not exactly sure how to play a small pot. I mean, I can't figure out the sequence of events that results in a small pot to begin with.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are waaay overthinking my comment. Very simply, which way is the pot smaller, if you check-call an 800 bet, or if you bet 800, get raised to 1600, and call the 800 more. My point wast that on the flop, check-calling gets less money in the pot, then betting and calling a raise. Thats all.

[ QUOTE ]
Was this facetious, or would you really consider raising ~21k into a pot of 4600?


[/ QUOTE ]

I was being serious, but i wouldnt actually be moving in. After I got raised to 1600 when it came back to me I'd make it about 5k which very pretty much committs you to calling a flop push on the strength of your OESD alone. So, while the raise isn't a push, it is the basic equivalent


[ QUOTE ]
Thanks, I can see the reasoning behind the fold now. I think my thoughts were clouded by just how crippled I was going to be (low "orange zone", but I think I was thinking I was going to be in the "yellow zone") if I folded, plus my general inability to get away from a made hand, even if one of the cardinal sins of NL is going broke with one pair.

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Not calling here has nothing to do with only having one pair. There are plenty of times when a one pair hand is more than good enough to go to the felt with. I just don't see this being one of them after taking in all the conditions.