Is this the "Noble Cause"...?

MtSmalls · #1 08-29-2005, 07:29 PM

that we have been fighting for? Is this Democracy being spread around the world? The text for the proposed Iraqi Constitution, that the pResident is so proud of, is here.

Some important bits:

After Article 1 states that Iraq is an independent sovereign nation, Article 2 is a doozy:

1st -- Islam is the official religion of the state and is a basic source of legislation:

(a) No law can be passed that contradicts the undisputed rules of Islam.

(b) No law can be passed that contradicts the principles of democracy.

(c) No law can be passed that contradicts the rights and basic freedoms outlined in this constitution.

Ok, so all of the laws HAVE to be both democratic and in line with Sharia law.

Go down a little further to Article 17:
Each person has the right to personal privacy as long as it does not violate the rights of others or general morality."

And in like fashion Article 36:
The state guarantees, as long as it does not violate public order and morality:
1st -- the freedom of expressing opinion by all means.
2nd -- the freedom of press, publishing, media and distribution.
3rd -- freedom of assembly and peaceful protest will be organized by law

So basic freedom of speech and expression, and a right to privacy, as long as you aren't violating "general morality".

Guess who is going to define that last term? I'm guessing it will be ok to write an editorial in the local paper critizing the government, but very likely NOT ok to write a similar one to say, give women the right to drive or wear western clothing. And you have the right to privacy as long you aren't watching a bootleg copy of "Dukes of Hazzard" or any other western movie showing half naked women. And you'd best get rid of any of that booze in your house.

In the end, banning offenses due to "morality", is a democracy, its a THEOCRACY run by the thought police.

[/sarcasm on] I'm sure glad 2000 Americans could die for this. [/sarcasm off]

bobman0330 · #2 08-29-2005, 07:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Article 17:
Each person has the right to personal privacy as long as it does not violate the rights of others or general morality.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm glad to see the Iraqis have chosen to write a stronger protection of privacy than exists in the US Constitution.

Why should we impose our decision to allow things like pornography on other nations? Why are you supporting pirated version of copyrighted material?

jokerthief · #3 08-29-2005, 07:40 PM

This makes me ashamed that I once supported this war.

Autocratic · #4 08-29-2005, 08:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Article 17:
Each person has the right to personal privacy as long as it does not violate the rights of others or general morality.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm glad to see the Iraqis have chosen to write a stronger protection of privacy than exists in the US Constitution.

Why should we impose our decision to allow things like pornography on other nations? Why are you supporting pirated version of copyrighted material?

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think that's really a strong privacy clause? Loopholes will arise, trust me.

The real issue here is that if the Sunnis get angry enough about thee imposing federalism, they could easily take things into their own hands - violently. I really view it as a dangerous situation, and one that the U.S. can't really do much about as of now.

sam h · #5 08-29-2005, 08:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Is this Democracy being spread around the world?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is it undemocratic to draft a constitution that is not secular?

quinn · #6 08-29-2005, 08:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]

(b) No law can be passed that contradicts the principles of democracy.

[/ QUOTE ]

What a terrible constitution. I don't think I need to explain this.

They should basically copy the US constitution, since it doesn't look like they can handle it themselves.

Autocratic · #7 08-29-2005, 08:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is this Democracy being spread around the world?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is it undemocratic to draft a constitution that is not secular?

[/ QUOTE ]

It can so easily be made undemocratic, is the issue. Following Islamic law can be done in a passive, or aggressive manner.

sam h · #8 08-29-2005, 08:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It can so easily be made undemocratic, is the issue. Following Islamic law can be done in a passive, or aggressive manner.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess it depends upon your definition of democracy. My point is that it is not surprising that, through the democratic process, you might end up with a set of rules that endanger other values - such as certain personal freedoms - that we generally associate with democracy but are not technically part of many definitions of democracy.

I do think, however, that it is the federalism issue that is most important right now. Yes, the place may end up being run on sharia but the biggest danger seems to be whether the state will even survive intact.

MtSmalls · #9 08-30-2005, 11:32 AM

I was using some of the most obvious examples that I could think of. I don't support the piracy of intellectual property.

Let me rephrase: Can it really be considered a democracy, if the Mullahs can declare anything 'immoral', and thus illegal? Any form of television could be declared 'outside public morality', by a small group of clerics. Or women's right to vote, be educated, drive, or show their face in public. Or the right of an muslim man to marry a christian woman (or jewish). That could easily be declared immoral and the offenders jailed or worse. Its not a democracy if a few in power can invade the rights of the many, especially without recall.

To put it another way, would you be comfortable under this constitution with Pat Robertson and James Dobson at the controls??

SheetWise · #10 08-30-2005, 01:53 PM

We knew the Constitution was going to involve some concessions. In our own, we declared that slaves were "3/5ths of a person ...", and women did not have the vote.

They have made some concessions to a radical element -- which was necessary to accomplish the first step.

When I read-
[ QUOTE ]

(a) No law can be passed that contradicts the undisputed rules of Islam.

(b) No law can be passed that contradicts the principles of democracy.

[/ QUOTE ]

I read the undisputed qualifier as a way to throw a bone to opposition that, in reality, doesn't mean much. Most of the part we don't like is disputed.

Give it a chance.

- SheetWise