In which I checkraise with undercards.

Entity · #1 08-28-2005, 07:19 PM

Party 10/20. Good game. Table is somewhat loose, but nothing out of the ordinary; I've been playing fairly well, have a pretty good image as far as I can tell.

UTG folds and I raise black QJo next to act. This may or not be a mistake the way the game was playing out, but I think it's close at least.

A loose passive player next to me coldcalls, and in the seat after him, a 20/15/3 TAG who I think is a bit overaggressive and a mediocre handreader, coldcalls on the Button. SB coolcalls, BB folds, and we have ourselves a family pot. Whoops.

The flop is K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. I look at the 4-handed pot and the fact that Button coldcalled and the fact that I really don't know where I am and decide to check. This may be a mistake, as this is a decent flop for representing a decent hand, IMO. But alas, I check.

The loose-passive player (who will bet pairs and draws, FWIW), checks, and now Button bets. Hmm. SB folds.

I pause for just a moment, and checkraise.

Rob

TStoneMBD · #2 08-28-2005, 07:35 PM

this is the problem with QJo in MP.

bugstud · #3 08-28-2005, 07:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
this is the problem with QJo in MP.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never fold QJo if it's mucked to me in 6max, so I don't get this.

Entity · #4 08-28-2005, 08:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
this is the problem with QJo in MP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh, thanks? QJ is showing a small profit for me raising first-in in MP in 5/10 6max over 50k hands (small sample size beware), and I know a lot of players raise it UTG (I don't).

Regardless, I dunno, I thought the flop play was interesting but I'm still not really sure that I like it. I will certainly understand if people post that they hate it, though I'd hope that it gets more than a one-liner approach.

Rob

TheDelChop · #5 08-28-2005, 09:38 PM

As much as I like this play, I don't really think its profitable unless you think the Button can fold hands that he wouldn't 3-bet with. If he would CC you with K-Q or K-Js and he's not letting go, this sucks. Even if he is willing to fold, I don't think he'll fold until he misses the turn too which means that you have to invest another bet at least, and what do you do if he just calls that? I don't think this play is really worth it.

einbert · #6 08-28-2005, 09:43 PM

If he's a mediocre handreader I guess this is okay, but if I am button I think I call your checkraise and raise you on the turn no matter what my cards are.

So, if your read is right this play seems great but that would have to be quite a bad handreader (i hope it wasn't actually me lol).

TStoneMBD · #7 08-28-2005, 10:00 PM

i am on the side of the arguements that QJo is not profitable in MP in alot of games. however i could of course be wrong. your hand is the problem that QJo has in MP. seriously though, i have no idea why you mentioned your 50k sample size as backup for why the hand is profitable. i also apologize for posting a one-liner, but i dont see why you are offended by that. i thought my comment was food for thought and a good opener for discussion. i really dont know what to say about the flop play other than its unorthodox. i have nothing that i find important to comment on it so i chose not to. would you have preferred i didnt reply at all?

editted because i misread your reply.

TheMetetron · #8 08-28-2005, 10:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
this is the problem with QJo in MP.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never fold QJo if it's mucked to me in 6max, so I don't get this.

[/ QUOTE ]

sammy_g · #9 08-28-2005, 11:03 PM

Like others, I open with QJo from UTG+1 on in a 6 max game and muck it UTG.

I looked at the PokerRoom.com EV statistics for QJo, and PokerRoom says it's a loser from UTG in a 5 handed 10/20 game, which surprised me. Of course that only means the average player loses money with it. PokerRoom does say it's profitable from every other position.

It would be interesting to pool a bunch of 2+2er stats for this hand to get a reasonable sample from good players.

bobbyi · #10 08-28-2005, 11:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
QJ is showing a small profit for me raising first-in in MP in 5/10 6max over 50k hands (small sample size beware)

[/ QUOTE ]
Even disregarding the sample size issue (which is difficult), this argument is lame. The fact that QJo shows a profit when you average together all situations where you open-raise two off the button does not mean that at this particular table it was a profitably raise in this position.