Preflop debate

[Gabe]

A. 100-200 So. Cal. live game. A okay player limps UTG. It is folded to Hero who limps on button with JTo. One of the blinds plays okay.

B. 20-40 good So. Cal. game. Looser players are in early and mid positions. CO and/or Button is relatively tight. SB is bad. BB is very good. Hero has KJo UTG and raises.

In both instances, Hero plays very well and is quite possibly the best player in the game.

[doodle2]

in the first instance, i cant see how limping on the button is superior to raising. Raising allow the button to take control of the hand, force the blinds out, and isolate the limper. If you cant make the raise/dont want to make the raise i think that the hand should probably hit the muck.

doodle

[CardSharpCook]

agreed. We're saying that we believe that the UTG player has a mid-PP and was hoping to start a trend. Raising here gives us an AKQ to bluff on the flop. We no longer need to simply hit. Also, raising folds out Q4 and K5 in the blinds. This is good.

[Rick Nebiolo]

I voted that the play in A. was better than the play in B. and that A. is acceptable and B. is probably a mistake.

The isolation play of raising a single limper from late postion or the button should be used often but it shouldn't be used every time you chose to play. JTo with postion is a little too good to throw away, and just a little on the weak side to pull the isolation raise (and the strength of the isolation play is negated when the limper and one of the blinds plays OK). The other advantage of sometimes limping behind a limper is that it makes your raises more credible when you chose to take that line.

The default play for KJo UTG should be easy fold. That said, sometimes, when your image is perfect (e.g., tight and you've been showing nothing but winners or strong hands in the showdown), the blinds don't defend much, and there are tight, predictable and/or clueless players behind you, it's worth a raise. But this situation is worse than average for KJo since, in this case, everything appears to be the reverse of the ideal.

~ Rick

[Michael Davis]

Awesome post, Rick.

-Michael

[mike l.]

hand A was me and hand B was gabe.

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
hand A was me and hand B was gabe.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like this one was argued at Pink's.

[bernie]

A: If the blinds are loose, I lean on just limping. If they are tight, I'd raise this. Even getting one of them out is a bonus. Lately, I've been raising this quite a bit with only 1 limper to me.

B: I love KJo. In this type of game, I hate that raise. Here's who's behind you:
[ QUOTE ]
Looser players are in early and mid positions

[/ QUOTE ]

and you don't have position on them. With them very possibly colccalling you, it can entice the tighties behind you to coldcall also. How do you like your KJo out of position with 2-4 players behind you? I don't really like it. If you're already getting action on your raises, both in general and from EP, chuck this hand to the muck from this spot. The conditions have to be just right to do this. Even then, sparingly.

b

[jgorham]

Why do we want to isolate a good player with a hand which (probably) has solid showdown value? I am not trying to be contradictory, its just that my usual line is to limp in such a position.

[oreogod]

KJo hand is worse than JTo hand (JTo can actually go either way imo..limp or raise)