Raising low pp PF for value

thesharpie · #1 08-26-2005, 06:06 AM

I think I should've raised the first time around for value, but I didn't and I got a chance to reraise so I did against 6-7 opponents. VP$IPs are about 3 mid 20s, 1 lower 30s, 1 mid 70s, SB a rock and PFRer a 50/18 LAG. I guess the only thing I have to worry about is the LAG capping, but I don't think he does often, he's not the frisky type.

Cryptologic 2.00/4.00 Hold'em (10 handed) link

Preflop: Hero is Button with 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, 1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Hero calls, SB calls, BB raises, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Hero 3-bets

Eeegah · #2 08-26-2005, 06:20 AM

You're going to flop a set 1/8 of the time and there are 5 opponents in the first time it comes around to you. Even if we don't factor in the rake and assume both blinds call I don't think we can bet this for value unless you think you may see showdown and win with U/I 55 often enough to compensate.

Fadook · #3 08-26-2005, 06:45 AM

You've got five people in front of you and you want to raise with a pair of 5s for value? Pocket pairs, particularly small ones like these, don't play well in mlti-way pots.

lufbradolly · #4 08-26-2005, 06:58 AM

small pockets pairs do play well in multi way pots like these because you either hit a set or some sort of one card straight draw or you fold simple.

p@t@dds · #5 08-26-2005, 07:01 AM

Low pocket pairs are good in multi-way pots only IF, and I stress IF, you can see the flop cheaply. I.E. one or two bets max. You will only flop a set roughly 15% of the time. Then if you miss your set, you have to dodge 8 overcards. Raising for value with pocket 5's is a really bad move and will cost you a lot of money in the long run if you continue to do it. The only time I would recommend raising with pocket 5's is in late position with no limpers and you want to win the blinds or keep it heads up. Hope this helps. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Fadook · #6 08-26-2005, 07:03 AM

Maybe, but there's not enough equity to raise pf. If you're going to automatically fold to a bet if you don't hit your set, why raise with this hand?

aK13 · #7 08-26-2005, 08:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe, but there's not enough equity to raise pf. If you're going to automatically fold to a bet if you don't hit your set, why raise with this hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

7.5:1 to hit a set. We have 8 players in the pot. Already, that's enough equity to raise since we expect to win if we hit our set. Slap on gigantic implied odds when we hit a full house vs. trips/straight/flush since these will chase in a pot this big when they are virtually drawing dead, and this is a very very easy value raise.

We don't always fold the flop. Sometimes we flop a straight draw, and if not, we frequently have odds to draw to out set in this gigantic pot.

jrz1972 · #8 08-26-2005, 08:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You've got five people in front of you and you want to raise with a pair of 5s for value? Pocket pairs, particularly small ones like these, don't play well in mlti-way pots.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pocket pairs are awesome and extremely easy to play in multiway pots.

jrz1972 · #9 08-26-2005, 08:34 AM

That said, I don't like this raise either. Even if both blinds come along (admittedly likely), you're only getting you're not even breaking even since you won't flop a set 1 time in 7.

Moreover, people forget that sets occasionally get cracked; a set is not as strong a hand as the nut flush. Granted, its very strong, but I would guess you'll lose about 20% of the time you flop your set. (I think my W$SD with a set is only something like 65%, but that doesn't include the times you improve to a boat, but even then my W$SD is under 90%). The interesting thing is that by raising preflop, you actually increase the likelihood of having your set cracked since you bloat the pot and tie all sorts of gutshots and backdoor flush draws to the hand.

All things considered, I'm pretty sure this is -EV. I know these sorts of raises are popular among the 22/12 crowd, but they don't seem to be supported by the math.

jrz1972 · #10 08-26-2005, 08:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe, but there's not enough equity to raise pf. If you're going to automatically fold to a bet if you don't hit your set, why raise with this hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

7.5:1 to hit a set. We have 8 players in the pot. Already, that's enough equity to raise since we expect to win if we hit our set. Slap on gigantic implied odds when we hit a full house vs. trips/straight/flush since these will chase in a pot this big when they are virtually drawing dead, and this is a very very easy value raise.

We don't always fold the flop. Sometimes we flop a straight draw, and if not, we frequently have odds to draw to out set in this gigantic pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. (nit) You only have 7 players in the pot if both blinds come along, not 8. So you don't have the equity you need for your raise to be +EV.

2. Implied odds are irrelevant if you're considering a value raise. They matter when you're thinking about calling a bet, not when you're the one doing the betting. By raising PF, Hero cut his implied odds in half.