I hate this, complete, call call call call

Transference · #1 08-20-2005, 04:01 PM

I suck and can't decide if this is horrible or routine.
Villian is pretty close to unknown. He's been timid except when he raises preflop, when he can bet a miss but doesnt get crazy. BB is loose, passive and fishy.

I feel like raising to protect is futile, and I might get 3bet with a worse hand.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP calls, Button calls, Hero completes, BB raises, UTG calls, MP calls, Button calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG bets, MP folds, Button folds, Hero calls, BB calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG bets, Hero calls, BB calls.

River: (9.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG bets, Hero calls, BB folds.

Final Pot: 11.50 BB

Nietzsche · #2 08-20-2005, 04:10 PM

I don't like that flop call. CR partly to protect and give the pfr a chance to fold and partly for value because you have to believe that you have the best hand here. Much of the time UTG has a big heart. Make him pay for his aggression with a drawing hand. If he 3-bets I get into calling mode unless a heart comes on the turn or river.

wackjob · #3 08-20-2005, 04:20 PM

Lead the flop or C/R. I will lead the flop here many times in hopes that someone else is going to raise me with a pair + flush draw.

Nick C · #4 08-20-2005, 06:20 PM

I'd probably lead the flop, but I suppose the passive BB isn't raising with A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] anyway. (I think you'd like for him to, even though you're only approximately a coin flip versus that hand. Getting rid of unduplicated overcards would be good here, if you're ahead.) And he quite possibly has an overpair instead. And there's probably no hope of him raising A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. (If there aren't any big hearts out there, getting the small/medium ones out, if possible, sure would be nice. However, I'm thinking it probably isn't possible, partly because BB probably won't raise unless you're drawing against him, in which case driving out all the hearts would buy you one measly out, if that. And, also, there aren't actually all that many "small/medium" hearts available. And with this many players in, there's a pretty good chance someone has a big flush card.)

After you check instead, and it comes back one bet to you in what is now a 3-way pot, I think a checkraise is something to consider. But, jeez, I don't suppose BB is folding a heartless overpair (this could be what he has). Would he dump A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]? I'm thinking you wouldn't mind if he did, though he's drawing very thin anyway if UTG happens to have K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or something. But UTG could have a hand like 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] instead, I'm thinking. Of course, he could also have you drawing practically dead.

A turn checkraise might be something to consider. If UTG is betting a draw, the checkraise would charge him extra, and BB might even fold a better hand. However, he's going to have a big heart he's playing scared with a fair amount of the time (I think), and he's not folding that, and I'm not really all that confident about being ahead of UTG. But folding to a 3-bet, if UTG makes one, would be easy enough, I'm thinking.

On the river, I'd probably check-call too. Checkraising in an effort to avoid an overcall from BB could be something to consider, though. If nothing else, the discussion in the chatbox after the hand might give you some reading material if UTG then 3-bets and you fold. Edit: The thing is, though, now that UTG has actually bet the river versus two players, with no more cards to come, the chances that you're beating him went down quite a bit. Hmm. I don't think I like a river checkraise much at all, really. That said, if you could convince UTG that you had trapped him and push him off of a better hand, that would be nice, so long as BB doesn't call two with a better hand first.

Like I said at the beginning, I would probably lead the flop (I'm not sure if that's best or not, though). After I didn't do that, there's a good chance I would have played the hand the exact same way you did (and I'm not sure that's best either).

This seems like a very difficult hand to me.

irishpint · #5 08-20-2005, 06:27 PM

i'd check raise that flop all day. after UTG bets it's folded to you w/ only BB left to act. If we c/r we're making BB call 2 cold- most likely he wont. Now we're heads up with a medium top pair and our odds of dodging bullets/hearts/overcards to the river haven't changed, but the odds of those hearts or overs helping our opponents has since we've reduced the number of them playing.

Terrabon98 · #6 08-20-2005, 06:30 PM

I would lead the flop if the BB has been very aggressive after he raises preflop, because you will be assured a raise many times, which will do a nice job of cleaning up the field. If not, I would play the flop the same, and then lead that unthreatening turn. This puts BB in a very bad spot, facin a bet with 3 or 4 people still left to act who could raise. If UTG chooses to raise your bet, then I would probably call down unless he's a super tighty...but I think either of those two approaches will do a good job of protecting your very vulnerable hand in these types of hands.

paco · #7 08-20-2005, 06:39 PM

I could easily be wrong, but I don't really see a problem with it. You can't protect your hand vs the inevitable flush draw and yes, you will very well get 3-bet by not only a big hand, but a big draw as well maybe. After the river bet its less likely he's still charging with overs, but i'd call one more.

Edit: misread teh hand--c/r and make BB call 2 cold.