Online 2-4 PLO hand, Shockingly AA loses again. . .

[Acesover8s]

One of the first things that I learned about PLO is not to overplay aces. I usually will not open raise with them unless I have been at the table long enough to show that I do it with a number of hands or I will attempt to isolate a raiser by 3-betting especially if I can get all in before the flop.

I had thought this was a good strategy until this hand.

PLO 2-4 blinds. UTG makes a limit raise to $8. One folder to me and I just call with AdAh10d6d. One folder. Next player makes it $12 to go. Next player makes it $16 to go. THese limit raises were uncommon for this table and had me confused.

FOlded back to UTG who just calls. The pot is big enough now that I can raise all in (which indicates how well I was doing so far in this game.) So I raise my remaining 80 or 90 bucks.

Two players behind me either call or raise back, I don't remember the stack sizes. Not important since I'm all in for the main pot. UTG thinks for as long as he can and finally calls.

Flop comes KdJd4d. I am very happy.

Turn is a 4 of something. I am very unhappy.

River is clouded by my tears.

UTG wins the entire thing with KQQ4.

Now to my question. I got 3 others all in preflop with the best preflop hand (highest anyway). Seems good, obviously variances will shoot through the roof, but seems like a decent play. Only thing is, had I just called the $16, flopped the nuts, I could have bet all in on the flop and probably not been called. There were no sets out there, so the only people who might have called would have been smaller flushes. All that betting preflop most likely indicates another pair of aces was out against me. Maybe I should have folded preflop with a pair of dead dangly aces?

I hope I'm not being too results oriented here. Any thoughts?

[Zoe's Echo]

Aces,

The lesson that I am quickly learning about NL/PL Omaha8 is that one way hands are best played strongly post flop. I think if your hand were AAT2 double suited you have a better case to get it all in preflop. That said you obviously had the best hand and will take KQQ4 out to the wood shed on most days. The problem is that if you have 3-4 callers almost any face card on the flop means that there is a set out. The fact that there is even 2 callers after your all-in raise means to me anyway that there is at least one nut low out there so one of your A outs is gone. Given that there were more callers at the 3 bet level most likely both were gone.

Given the high only nature of the hand I think that you call along with the rest of the crowd and make your move if the flop is to your liking. There is nothing more frustrating than hitting your hand but not having the juice to protect it. The KJ4d board is about as good as it gets for you if KK or JJ will come along for the ride. If you put your last $90 into that with the nut flop with limited low draw then you are getting the best of it.

Preflop without the low it is my opinion too much of a gamble given the hands that people will call with - such as KQQ4. What is he looking for here - a two out Q - or ATJ flop rainbow? I think from a variance perspective in Omaha8 I like to get my oneway money in on the flop rather than preflop.

Good Luck!

[Saucy]

I don't see any suggestion in the post that this was Omaha 8. I think it was straight high.

[Zoe's Echo]

Thus making my comments irrelevant.

Thanks Saucy - Sorry Aces over

[sam h]

I think your flop play is fine. An argument can be made for raising initially, but once that action is to you a second time, I would have probably moved in as well. As you noted, the biggest consideration is the likelihood of the other aces being out there, given the minimum raises. What were the stack sizes of the other players involved? If there were two or more large stacks, generally the chances of being against aces are going to be higher. If the players were shortstacked, then it is more likely that they would raise larger.

Betting all-in on this particular flop would probably have let you take it down. But what about all the other flops that don't give you the nuts? Or what if you had just called and then lost to 6544? Would you then be lamenting not moving in preflop and knocking this mediocre hand out? I'm not criticizing, just noting that PLO can be infuriating and lead to a lot of results oriented thoughts.

One last note: KQQ4 is exactly the type of hand you want to be against with AAT6. You want to be matched up against underpairs and hands that need straight cards that you hold. If the other aces are out there, your equity is still probably not that great. But the other players may be holding each others' outs as well.

[Zoe's Echo]

To me this is without a doubt all-in time in high only. Sorry for the confusion.

[Guy McSucker]

I think you played it right, if you were going to play it at all. AAT6 is a bit dangly, as you say. I am very wary of dangly aces in Omaha.

It's hard to hit the nuts on the flop with this hand, but it's a favourite over the kinds of hand that will likely come along with you for all your money before the flop, so all-in is the move.

A hand like AAKQ or AAJT is more of a playing hand, in that you might flop a nice draw, so I guess a case could be made for seeing the flop with something like that: you get to outplay your opponents and get your money in as a bigger favourite, or bail out cheaper when it comes 6-6-9.

But I can't play Omaha, as you saw the other day on PS!

Guy.

[Acesover8s]

Curious as to your argument about raising initially. I think this is definitely a bad play unless I know the table has a player who is willing to raise me back (overplaying position) and letting me put it all in. Or, if I've been at the table long enough to show them I raise with other hands, which I will be the first to admit, I'm not nearly as frisky a player at 2-4 as I am at .50 - 1 or such.

I don't want to play with my hand turned over out of position.

[Acesover8s]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
I think you played it right, if you were going to play it at all. AAT6 is a bit dangly, as you say. I am very wary of dangly aces in Omaha.


[/ QUOTE ]

The more I think about this hand the more I think I had a clear fold preflop. Worse than my aces being dangly is my 3 flush and the fact that there is no chance I'm going to catch another ace. The only flop I can like is the lucky one I got or JQK, too much of a gamble just because I have the "preflop nuts"

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
But I can't play Omaha, as you saw the other day on PS!


[/ QUOTE ]

Well, you certainly played well enough to take chips from me and smear them around the rest of the table. . . [img]/forums/images/icons/mad.gif[/img]

[Guy McSucker]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
you certainly played well enough to take chips from me and smear them around the rest of the table

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, as they say.

Can I defend myself by saying I was only concentrating when I was playing against you? :-P

Guy.