I hate pocket pairs...

DrunkHamster · #1 08-14-2005, 11:23 AM

I have no real reads on people in this hand, I only played a few hands with them so far. PF is standard, although I am starting to feel as though it shouldn't be. For example, with 99 and TT, I don't think I have ever won a pot with more than 4 people in without improving to a set. Anyway, what do you think of the play? I think folding to 2 cold was right considering the OC and paired board, but even so, I still am at a loss with these hands.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. MP2 posts a blind of $0.50. MP3 posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG calls, Hero raises, 1 fold, MP1 calls, MP2 (poster) calls, MP3 (poster) calls, CO calls, 1 fold, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG calls.

Flop: (15 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (7 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO calls, SB folds, UTG calls.

Turn: (10 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks, MP1 bets, MP2 raises, CO calls, UTG folds, Hero folds, MP1 calls.

River: (16 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
MP1 checks, MP2 bets, CO calls, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 19 BB

J. Sawyer · #2 08-14-2005, 11:38 AM

thats a definitate fold on the turn.

adsman · #3 08-14-2005, 12:14 PM

I never check this turn. And I win with TT-22 without flopping a set all the time.

DrunkHamster · #4 08-14-2005, 12:47 PM

OK adsman, is it possible for you to show me some hands where you have mid PPs like this, multiple callers, overcards on the flop, and where you still win? I would really like to see how you play them, as I feel it is one of my biggest leaks at the moment.

PS, are you Australian? If so, from an Englishman, I'm sorry about how things are going [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

adsman · #5 08-14-2005, 01:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
OK adsman, is it possible for you to show me some hands where you have mid PPs like this, multiple callers, overcards on the flop, and where you still win?

[/ QUOTE ]

By betting on the flop you showed that you weren't too worried about a J. In an unraised pot this would be incorrect as most players would raise with an A,K,Q combination preflop, meaning that a J high flop would have probably hit someone. But this is a raised pot with 4 cold-callers, (great table). BUT, two of the cold-callers posted so they could literally have anything. So on this hand I think there's a good chance that you're stuffed, (due to the two posters), but normally in a raised pot preflop I would bet this all the time. The 3 would thus be a good card as you're looking at whiffed overcards. Here it's not so great but I still follow up anyway.

PP's are hugely under-rated. If you can get them HU they can win a lot of the time. Look for paired boards. 33 on a 885 board against 2 oppoents can be easily won if the right card comes on the Turn. It takes experience and selective aggression but you're giving away too much if you throw away PP's every time you don't hit a set.

[ QUOTE ]
PS, are you Australian? If so, from an Englishman, I'm sorry about how things are going [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

You guys are a very long way from winning the ashes. A lot further than you think. Because you're Poms. And Poms are good at one thing. Choking. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

DrunkHamster · #6 08-14-2005, 01:57 PM

Thanks for the clarification, I do need some practise with PPs. I know they are underrated, but I still have trouble with them, especially when overcards fall.

I didn't know there were so many Aussies around! Its gonna make it even more fun when we take back the ashes (for the first time since I've been into cricket as well). You guys lucked out yesterday, if it didn't rain we might've had a real match. Your only hope now is to do a rain dance tonight [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Dave G. · #7 08-14-2005, 12:21 PM

I'd check the flop and see what happens, I'd probably check/call one (because the pot will probably justify trying to spike your T). If it's two to you fold.

If the pot were smaller, this would be a check/fold. You're almost certainly not good here; there's 6 other people in the hand with you! The chance that one of them has a jack is very high, leaving you drawing to 2 outs. Additionally, there's a flush draw on the board... your chances of actually winning from here are very small.

That being said, if you're ahead on the flop, you're probably still ahead on the turn. Betting the flop but not betting the turn makes no sense. There has to be a reason for your play. Why did you bet the flop if you weren't going to follow up to this very safe turn?

When it's 2 back to you on the turn it's a turbomuck.

DrunkHamster · #8 08-14-2005, 12:27 PM

The board paired - if people were calling with ANY part of the board, I am now screwed. Plus, if I bet, and it came back 2 to me I would have to fold anyway, so I thought I would check, and evaluate my options.

Dave G. · #9 08-14-2005, 12:38 PM

It's true that someone could have a 3 and you just got screwed. However, I don't think a 3 is all that likely, and there are much worse cards that could have come for your hand. I would still bet the turn if I thought I had the best hand on the flop.

Would you bet the turn if there were no J on the board? If so then you should bet here, because your flop bet says 'I don't believe anyone has a J'.

DrunkHamster · #10 08-14-2005, 12:45 PM

I see what you're getting at - I probably should have checked the flop. I just didn't really want to give any chances for free cards. On the turn, again, with 6 people still around, I was pretty sure my hand was no good, so thats when I checked. If, on the turn, its 1 back to you, what is your play? I really need to get these hands sorted out in my head.