standard?

mike l. · #1 08-13-2005, 07:25 AM

40-80 live game good 6 handed. i openraise Ks8s from the button. both blinds call. the sb is an old man who plays mediocre. he's not particularly tight, but he is fairly aggressive. he can bet when checked to and can tilt. he is grumpy and has been noticeably angry when i win a pot even if it's not against him. ive turned over nothing but good hands. he's not laying down anything ever, and he's not tricky. sb has been losing in the game and grumping up the whole scene with his frowning gray face. bb doesnt matter cause he folds the flop.

the flop is 9c7c3s. checked to me and i bet. sb checkraises, bb folds, i call.

the turn is 8h. he bets, i call.

is this the right way to play hold em?

rigoletto · #2 08-13-2005, 07:40 AM

Why not raise and check behind on the river unless you improve? There are lot's of draws out there and by calling you almost have to check behind on the river.

mike l. · #3 08-13-2005, 07:52 AM

"There are lot's of draws out there"

right but im not sure he's sophisticated ior creative enough to checkraise a draw. but he might checkraise nothing. and he would know to raise a draw if bet into and he has position. or bet a draw on the flop into the preflop raiser with the intention of calling. does that make sense?

rigoletto · #4 08-13-2005, 07:59 AM

Sorry, I didn't clarify. I meant that he will call a turn raise with lesser hands than he will call a river bet, and since you are committed to showdown when calling, and it will be hard for you to bet the river you might as well raise the turn and charge him when he is drawing.

mike l. · #5 08-13-2005, 08:28 AM

"and it will be hard for you to bet the river"

what's this about betting the river? i would assume he would bet into me on the river since he's c/red the flop and bet the turn with no resistance. i guess he might check a 9 if the river is some card he perceives as bad for his hand.

anyway i dont think i like raising the turn. im not sure im showdown committed here.

rigoletto · #6 08-13-2005, 08:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]
"and it will be hard for you to bet the river"

what's this about betting the river? i would assume he would bet into me on the river since he's c/red the flop and bet the turn with no resistance. i guess he might check a 9 if the river is some card he perceives as bad for his hand.

anyway i dont think i like raising the turn. im not sure im showdown committed here.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you indeed have the best hand it'll be hard to value bet it if he checks the river. There are (as you mention) a lot of rivercards that could make him check a better hand.

I doesn't make sense for you to call the turn without a showdown. You say yourself that he could be betting nothing and that you expect him to bet the river. So why call the turn if you are willing to fold the river for 1 more bet?

Noo Yawk · #7 08-13-2005, 09:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
im not sure im showdown committed here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah you are. Once you call the turn, for one BB more you have the opportunity to throw him into utter raging tilt where he'll gladly throw more of his stack to you later on.

% your ahead + % to suck out + tilt potential=call

ggbman · #8 08-13-2005, 10:09 AM

Mike, i think something to think about here is that calling the flop C/R is very bad if you don't feel you can show down if you pair either of your hole cards. I don't think you even getting odds if you had 6 live outs, and if you were it was close. So, that said, calling this flop raise with the intention "feeling out" and 8 on the turn is a bad idea.

Gabe

imported_stealthcow · #9 08-13-2005, 10:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Mike, i think something to think about here is that calling the flop C/R is very bad if you don't feel you can show down if you pair either of your hole cards. I don't think you even getting odds if you had 6 live outs, and if you were it was close. So, that said, calling this flop raise with the intention "feeling out" and 8 on the turn is a bad idea.

Gabe

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a really good point. this board has quite a few draws for a variety of hands so his range is probably enough such that you can call the turn. i dont see him check raising the flop and then checking many, if any turns, so you sort of have to expect this to happen. if you aren't going to call unless you've paired your K, then you shouldn't be calling this turn.

i think you can and should call this flop c/r (although i can see a fold being okay, albeit weak/tight ), and you should call this turn and on most rivers call a river bet, or bet if checked too.

stealthcow-

siegfriedandroy · #10 08-13-2005, 10:42 AM

could you guys please elaborate on the pros/cons of calling the c'r, especially w/ regard to Gabe's point about 6 outs (at most)? seems to me the odds are not there- so how do we justify it? what are all the factors we consider in such situations?

thanks