And another KK hand

[Heimdal]

400NL - 8-handed

Players involved have $400. Aggressive and a little crazy player opens minimum in HJ. I make it $30 with K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Good tight perhaps a little passive BB calls. This is a big hand TT+, AK. HJ calls. Flop is 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], pot $90. They check to me. I decide to check. Good/bad? I didnt want to get raised of my hand by a draw.
Turn is an offsuit 6. The BB bets $80, HJ fold. I raise all in...?

I'd rather bet about 60 on the flop and find out where I'm at. If you just get flat called, most likely you are against an overpair with a diamond. Overbet again on a safe turn.

By him betting 80 on the turn, you're pretty much committed to the pot if you call it. You don't know if he's putting out a desperation bet hoping someone will pay off his made flush here. You're pretty much in the dark because you choose to do so by checking the flop.

* Street Fighter *

[sekrah]

I *HATE* the push on the turn.. I don't think that's a good play, you're only getting called if your beat.

I like the other posters thoughts.. Fire a $60 bet on the flop to find out where you're at..

If you get min-raised or something, I'd bail. If you get called, this is where it gets interesting.. I disagree with the other poster on what villain might have here.

He could very well be check-calling with made nut flush.. He's likely going to check the turn. Fire another $60. If you get raised, bail.

I like keeping the pot as small as possible on this tricky flop, while still retaining some initiative.


Don't like the check on the flop, and don't like the all in on the turn.

[mgsimpleton]

you checked the flop as not to get pushed off by a draw (assuming you would fold if raised all in because a draw COULD be a made hand) yet on the turn when someone bets into you you decide you are ahead and push. the only time you will get called by a push from a worse hand (a draw) IS on the flop. do you see the huge error in your reasoning there?

[mythrilfox]

Most people don't raise with a bare ace here, BB doesn't sound like the kind of player who's going to overplay a bare ace draw. HJ might but I don't see it very often, even from slightly crazy players. Giving a free card here on the flop is pretty bad and obviously the turn push is bad.

[Heimdal]

[ QUOTE ]
you checked the flop as not to get pushed off by a draw (assuming you would fold if raised all in because a draw COULD be a made hand) yet on the turn when someone bets into you you decide you are ahead and push. the only time you will get called by a push from a worse hand (a draw) IS on the flop. do you see the huge error in your reasoning there?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. Thank you. This is something I do to much

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
you checked the flop as not to get pushed off by a draw (assuming you would fold if raised all in because a draw COULD be a made hand) yet on the turn when someone bets into you you decide you are ahead and push. the only time you will get called by a push from a worse hand (a draw) IS on the flop. do you see the huge error in your reasoning there?

[/ QUOTE ]

Although this is true, it still doesn't mean OP didn't make the correct move on the turn.

if villain folds all worse hands, (most, like QdQc or whatnot) it's fine, because villain has a good amount of equity.

if we call those same hands dont rate to lose too much more, but you can cost yourself the pot if a 4th D falls, for example. (or underset out)

plus if OP makes the move on the flop, (as in gets it all in) those worse hands have ~11 outs, making him only a slight equity favorite. if he was going broke t the better hands (either freerolling KK or AA) it's better to wait for the turn, imo...

I like how this was played - duck - you suggest betting the flop? I no likey.

[fisherman112]

the flop check in position is ok after reraising preflop. it's worth doing occassionally simply to allow you to do the same thing when you have A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]k [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. although at 2/4 people arent going to be semibluffing oop into a reraiser that much so betting the flop is probably better.
the turn push makes no sense for the reasons everyone else stated

[anduril]

[ QUOTE ]
if villain folds all worse hands, (most, like QdQc or whatnot) it's fine,

[/ QUOTE ]

how is that fine? You want villain to fold an 11 outer with 1 card to come for all his money?

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if villain folds all worse hands, (most, like QdQc or whatnot) it's fine,

[/ QUOTE ]

how is that fine? You want villain to fold an 11 outer with 1 card to come for all his money?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, but it's better then caling and giving up ~25% of the pot when he would've folded... you see?

By pushing you force him to make a mistake (incorrect call) whereas calling here you can make the potential mistake on the riv.

let me reclarify, obviously if/when i push i want him to call with an inferior hand w/o pot odds all that good stuff. but even if he folds, thats fine, (I say) because I dont htink you'll make up "X" (which is ~25% of the pot, the cost of a free 11 outer) if you call and have him bluff/bet for value worse hands on last street