KK - called 3 bet preflop, now facing flop allin - deepish stacks

vector · #1 08-12-2005, 10:49 AM

First a little background, this hand happened shortly before the the one I want to discuss. BB here is UTG villain in the second hand.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter

MP ($183.15)
Hero ($352.65)
Button ($232.50)
SB ($725.80)
BB ($374.35)
UTG ($121.95)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $1.
2 folds, Hero raises to $8, 1 fold, SB (poster) calls $7, BB raises to $23, Hero calls $17, SB calls $17.

Flop: ($75) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB bets $100, Hero folds, SB folds.

Final Pot: $175

----------------------------------------------
Then shortly afterwards this hand occurred.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter

CO ($180.15)
Hero ($324.65)
SB ($230.50)
BB ($713.70)
UTG ($422.95)
MP ($114.95)

I have a few hundred hands on UTG; he is a huge LAG: 60% VPIP, 33% PFR, tempered by 23% WTSD.

Having said that, I can't recall having seen him 3 bet preflop before. As his WTSD% shows, like many LAGS, he slows down when aggression is returned to him.

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $1.
UTG raises to $7, 1 fold, CO calls $7, Hero raises to $25, 2 folds, UTG raises to $60, CO folds, Hero calls $35.

In many ways preflop is the key decision point. If I believe he has aces here, I can see a case for just folding. The set value is marginally there, although he may not payoff a K high flop with AA. But, stubbornly, I don't like the thought of him driving me off KK so shortly after driving me off QQ so call. 4 betting with KK isn't something I am ever likely to do, it lets him off too easily if he hasn't got aces.

Flop: ($130) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG calls $362.95 (All-In), Hero ?

Oh dear, what a pickle. He bet 200% of the pot, meaning I have to be good ~41% of the time to justify calling.

Everything he has done so far says AA, except perhaps for this bet. Why so big? If I was him and had AA I would make a PSB or slightly under and then get it in on the turn. He must realize I have a big pair.

Just maybe he has AK, figures I don't have AA because I didn't push preflop, and wants to bluff me off here. I know, unlikely. And it needs to be that or QQ (or pure bluff) 60% of the time. But he is an aggressive SOB.

Fold?

djoyce003 · #2 08-12-2005, 10:52 AM

for god sakes call in both of these hands. The dude is 60/33....what are you afraid of. You have monsters in both these hands...stomp a mudhole in him already.

BigF · #3 08-12-2005, 11:00 AM

Geez 2nd hand is an insta call. I would call it without any read and you said villain is a huge LAG.

The ONLY hand that can beat yours is AA and he doesn't have it.

kevkev60614 · #4 08-12-2005, 11:04 AM

Villian might not even be thinking about your hand, he's just repeating what worked for him a couple of hands ago.

Smack him good.

Raven · #5 08-12-2005, 11:08 AM

I have to say I call as well, and I dont think twice about it.

#6 08-12-2005, 11:08 AM

See if the site will mistakenly let you put more money on the table and then call.

jtr · #7 08-12-2005, 12:04 PM

What is it with you guys? Why can't this be AA? Just because someone is laggy with their PFRs does not mean they're laggy with their PF 3-bets. Usually LAGs are surprisingly conservative in what they'll fire back with preflop.

This guy is not a true maniac; he only sees 23% of showdowns. I think there's an excellent case for folding when the flop comes with no king.

vector · #8 08-12-2005, 01:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I have a few hundred hands on UTG; he is a huge LAG: 60% VPIP, 33% PFR, tempered by 23% WTSD.

Having said that, I can't recall having seen him 3 bet preflop before. As his WTSD% shows, like many LAGS, he slows down when aggression is returned to him.

[/ QUOTE ]

With one noteable exception all respondants call here, to paraphrase "without really thinking twice about it"?

I don't like posting obvious hands, and I really don't think this is (certainly not an obvious call anyway).

Is it really 60% likely he doesn't have AA?

djoyce003 · #9 08-12-2005, 02:14 PM

he's open pushed the flop within a couple of hands of each other.....there is no way he's only doing this with AA. Come on...he's doing this with a huge range of hands evidently....maybe his WTSD is so low because he is overbeting these pots and pushing people out. If you aren't making a stand in either of these hands against THIS guy with QQ or KK...then you HAVE TO MOVE TABLES.

vector · #10 08-12-2005, 02:20 PM

He bet less than a third of his stack on the flop in the earlier hand where I had QQ. Not an open push.