I hate calling down passive opponents

cmwck · #1 08-12-2005, 04:50 AM

Villain (MP)is 49/13/.94 and hasn't done much betting or raising.

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, 1 fold, BB calls, MP calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, MP bets, Hero raises, BB folds, MP 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP bets, Hero calls.

River: (8.25 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10.25 BB

Man, this really bugs me. I knew the flop 3-bet couldn't be good. I can't pick out any hand that I'm ahead of other than maybe a flush draw that decided to go nuts. On the other hand, I'm not about to just fold top pair at the drop of a hat.

wackjob · #2 08-12-2005, 04:55 AM

Flush & straight draws might be getting over-aggro here as well as a weaker A. I've been 3-bet countless time in this spot by A2. Calldown is ok, or think about raising the turn maybe to punish an over-aggro drawing hand.

Nietzsche · #3 08-12-2005, 05:24 AM

If you are certain he is a passive folding the turn is better than calling down IMO. Only very rarely will a passive 3-bet a hand like A8 or worse.

New001 · #4 08-12-2005, 05:29 AM

With a VPIP of 49, is an aggression of nearly 1 really all that passive?

spydog · #5 08-12-2005, 06:26 AM

You can probably fold this river when the 3rd club hits. Calling the river isn't that bad, either. No way do I fold before the river. There are way too many draws on this flop.

thesharpie · #6 08-12-2005, 07:12 AM

You can probably fold the river. I don't see him getting aggressive with a straight draw and continuing the aggression, unless of course he has a flush draw which just hit. I don't see a worse ace playing it this way, either. If you only have a few hands on the guy then I call it.

goofball · #7 08-12-2005, 08:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
With a VPIP of 49, is an aggression of nearly 1 really all that passive?

[/ QUOTE ]

No it is not. I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed this. When looking at the agg stat keep in mind it needs to be looked at on a sliding scale with VPIP and PFR

Derek in NYC · #8 08-12-2005, 09:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I knew the flop 3-bet couldn't be good. I can't pick out any hand that I'm ahead of other than maybe a flush draw that decided to go nuts. On the other hand, I'm not about to just fold top pair at the drop of a hat.

[/ QUOTE ]

One line that can work is to cap the flop and fold the turn if he leads into you, but you need a very strong read on the player to do this (and your read must take into account the possibility that the guy is playing on tilt).

Nietzsche · #9 08-12-2005, 12:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
With a VPIP of 49, is an aggression of nearly 1 really all that passive?

[/ QUOTE ]

No it is not. I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed this. When looking at the agg stat keep in mind it needs to be looked at on a sliding scale with VPIP and PFR

[/ QUOTE ]
Not sure I agree with that. Someone with a high VPIP (50 range) ought to be folding a lot more flops than a TAG but they very rarely do, thus the low aggression.
How do you mean exactly?

DMBFan23 · #10 08-12-2005, 12:36 PM

players who are that loose preflop often do a lot of calling postflop, and it takes a LOT of betting to create a similar AF to a tighter player. thus even though their AF is lower, their average betting/raising hand will be weaker than a tighter player with a similar or higher AF.