NWP vs. FCP

Eegs · #1 08-11-2005, 07:07 PM

I've been lurking on both of these sites and there is a lot of s***talking going down about Daniel's challenge match with neverwin...if there was one for the live broadcast this has to be it...

cwsiggy · #2 08-11-2005, 07:13 PM

That will be a good one. Neverwin was bragging on UB after losing a 25k+!! pot to Prahlad that no one can beat him in limit. Prahlad sarcastically replied something like "boy,limit is such a huge edge game..."

shaniac · #3 08-11-2005, 10:06 PM

There are those who believe that a headsup limit player generally enjoys a greater edge vs his opponent than a NL player.

cwsiggy · #4 08-12-2005, 12:27 AM

I find it hard to believe a good limit player has more edge over an opponent in a limit game than a good NL player has over his opponent in a NL game. I'll side with Prahlad on this one. But I'm willing to change my mind if someone can tell me why the other argument is true.

citanul · #5 08-12-2005, 12:38 AM

wouldn't the basis of the argument be that one deep stacks, one unlucky card can kill you in nl while you get many many many spots where you can get unlucky in limit and still win a deepish stacked game?

citanul

cwsiggy · #6 08-12-2005, 12:56 AM

Sounds good to me. But doesn't NL favor the better "artist"/"reader"/"outplayer" in the long run if they are ok with living with higher variance.

shaniac · #7 08-12-2005, 01:04 AM

I'm not an expert on the relative difference, but I've heard it argued that an adept limit player will save and extract so many more bets (short-handed or headsup at least) per session that artistry in NL won't make up for.

OrangeKing · #8 08-12-2005, 01:09 AM

I think it depends just how large the stacks are. If I played a top heads-up limit specialist with 1,000 BB stacks, my chances of winning would be very, very close to 0. However, if I did the same thing against a NL player, my chances of winning would be much higher. In fact, I could teach a 3-year old how to have at least a realistic chance of winning a NL heads-up match of any stack size...they don't even have to look at the cards. I just need them to learn two words and know how to push chips.

J_V · #9 08-12-2005, 01:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think it depends just how large the stacks are. If I played a top heads-up limit specialist with 1,000 BB stacks, my chances of winning would be very, very close to 0.

[/ QUOTE ]

Think for a second about why this wouldn't be true.

Jordan Olsommer · #10 08-12-2005, 02:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I find it hard to believe a good limit player has more edge over an opponent in a limit game than a good NL player has over his opponent in a NL game. I'll side with Prahlad on this one. But I'm willing to change my mind if someone can tell me why the other argument is true.

[/ QUOTE ]

It doesn't seem to me to be true; limit offers the fish many, many more situations where he can play "correctly-by-accident."

Spectacular claims require spectacular proof, and the counterintuitive argument that an expert has a bigger edge in limit over NL (despite the fact that he can control pot odds in NL) so far hasn't been substantiated, in my opinion. The fact that "one card can kill you" would seem to me to be an argument for why variance would be higher for the expert in NL, not why EV would be lower.

Or maybe it's just stubbornness on my part since I don't know a single player who has a higher limit winrate than no-limit. I'm not saying it can't possibly be true - I'm just saying the people arguing that you have a greater edge in limit need much more convincing reasons than the ones they've provided thus far.