I donkbet and feel stupid :)

marand · #1 08-09-2005, 06:51 PM

MP is a TAG

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
Hero raises, MP 3-bets, 4 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP folds.

Final Pot: 4.25 BB

I very very rarely donkbet. I was trying to get too much action. I was hoping for the line:

Bet, raise, call
Bet, raise, reraise, call
Bet, call

If this a bad flop for that line?
Would a flop of 992 be better when I raised UTG with A9s?
Is a TAG the wrong kind of player to try this line against?

What is a reasonable hand for the TAG to 3-bet with preflop and then fold to my donkbet? 88 99 TT JJ QQ?

Looks like I should donkbet QJ QT JT against this player on a flop like this [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

wackjob · #2 08-09-2005, 06:54 PM

I find myself in this same situation often. I make the flop bet because I expect to get raised, thus getting 2 bets on the flop. Then I am feeling confident I will be able to c/r the turn.

Sucks, but sometimes it just doesn't work out.

Lmn55d · #3 08-09-2005, 06:56 PM

Well let's put his 3betting range on AJ-AK, 99-AA. On this flop 99-QQ will bet if checked to but will usually fold to a donk from you. That's 24 combos which is pretty significant. Theres 9 AKs, 12 AQs, 12 AJs, 3 AA, 3 KK. These guys will give you action whether you checkraise or bet...AJ maybe not so much. I don't think the extra action that you *might* get from betting out on the flop outweighs the SB you lose from 99-AA. I bet this flop a lot too though and, now that I think about it, maybe I shouldn't. Checkraising also allows you to call the 3bet and checkraise the turn, which is another nice line.

marand · #4 08-09-2005, 07:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Well let's put his 3betting range on AJ-AK, 99-AA. On this flop 99-QQ will bet if checked to but will usually fold to a donk from you. That's 24 combos which is pretty significant. Theres 9 AKs, 12 AQs, 12 AJs, 3 AA, 3 KK. These guys will give you action whether you checkraise or bet...AJ maybe not so much. I don't think the extra action that you *might* get from betting out on the flop outweighs the SB you lose from 99-AA. I bet this flop a lot too though and, now that I think about it, maybe I shouldn't. Checkraising also allows you to call the 3bet and checkraise the turn, which is another nice line.

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If your hand range for villian is correct and he would fold 99-QQ on a donkbet then I could bet any hand with +EV here.
24 combos fold, 39 combos call or raise (at which point I give up)

He would fold 38% of the time and the pot is giving me 7.5-1 odds. Do you really think he would always fold those hands on this board when I make a strange looking donkbet?

Lmn55d · #5 08-09-2005, 07:08 PM

how often are you gonna have nothing on that board though?? TJ and QT/QJ has to call a raise if you donkbet. Maybe you could do it with a hand like 77-99 if you don't hit in hopes of folding a higher pair. That very well could be +EV against a TAG...but they have to be holding a higher pair AND fold it. I don' think a typical tag folds 99-QQ all the time, but enough of the time that it is a significant loss IMO.

aflaba temp · #6 08-09-2005, 07:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don' think a typical tag folds 99-QQ all the time, but enough of the time that it is a significant loss IMO.

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Exactly. This is why I like the thought of this donkbet. When you c/r these pairs will fold pretty much all of the time. When you donk bet I think you will see a lot of confused calls. Most of the time on the flop. Not infrequently all the way to SD (or with a free SD raise).

New001 · #7 08-09-2005, 07:51 PM

If you're looking to bet/3-bet the turn, I find check/calling the flop is a lot better. Donkbetting both streets is just too suspicious.