What do you do with this river?

GooperMC · #1 08-07-2005, 09:14 PM

$25 PL Omaha Hi/Lo (5 handed)

SB ($33.31)
Hero ($35.05)
MP1 ($39.10)
CO ($23.85)
OTB ($63.11)

Preflop: Hero is in BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
MP1 calls [$0.25], (1 fold), OTB calls [$0.25], SB calls [$0.15], (1 check)

Flop: ($1) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB bets [$1], Hero calls [$1], MP1 folds, OTB calls [$1]

Turn: ($3.8) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets [$3.80], OTB calls [$3.80], SB folds

River: ($11.05) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero?

UTG was a totally fishy (the player from the Fishy table talk post) and OTB is a decent LAG (plays a lot of hands and plays them aggressively but wins most of the hands that he shows down).

I didn't raise the flop because UTG wasn't going to fold and I wanted to keep the pot controllable until I knew where I was at. On the river I debated between making a blocking bet or checking to try and induce a bluff.

What do you guys think, should I have raised the flop against the calling station? What should I do on the river?

Yads · #2 08-07-2005, 09:45 PM

I fold that flop. You have a terrible draw. Release it before you lose any more money.

sy_or_bust · #3 08-07-2005, 10:29 PM

I wouldn't call a pot bet with a non-nut flush draw and a gutshot.When you miss, which is often, you should expect to face a pot bet on the turn which you cannot call.

GooperMC · #4 08-07-2005, 11:43 PM

Short handed, with deep stacks compared to the bet, with a fishy betting at me, you guys really think that flop call is THAT bad?

emptyshell · #5 08-08-2005, 12:12 AM

You shouldn't be willing to play a big pot with a K-high flush, unless it was substantially raised preflop (if you did, what are your opponents calling with?). So, you are not going to lose much value by folding the flop, even five handed. If you get down to 2 or 3 people, things change a bit, and a semibluff might be in order.

gergery · #6 08-08-2005, 01:08 AM

Personally, I'd have folded on the flop. You are out of position and have 3 outs to the nuts. If your flush hits, then it is pretty obvious to everyone and its unlikely that a Q-hi flush will pay off big bets. so you have reverse implied odds -- you'll lose alot when behind, but not win alot when ahead. But I would defnitely play if OTB.

I don't like a blocking bet here. you are representing the flush by checking the flop then betting the turn. if he is a good lag, then he won't believe you have a boat. So against this type of opponent, I don't think you'll effectively block much as he is still likely to bluffraise, and its quite possible he has a hand strong enough to bet anyway.

On the river, you need to put OTB on a hand.
A2 w clubs - very possible; best to check
TJ w clubs - also possible; best to bet small
69, 6Q w A2 - possible; best to check
78 w A2 - possible, best to check-call
Q9 w A2 - possible but less likely, unclear
66 - unlikely, best check
Ax clubs but no low - unlikely, best check
99, QQ - unlikely would raise flop, best check

I think you are probably best off checking and then deciding what to do.

--Greg
www.o8poker.com

Wintermute · #7 08-08-2005, 09:30 AM

I agree with other posters. If you're going to call that flop bet because it's "just $1" it's time to move up levels so you'll behave.

GooperMC · #8 08-08-2005, 02:45 PM

I am still very much tweaking my shorthanded game so thanks for all the input.

[ QUOTE ]
You are out of position

[/ QUOTE ]
I have position on the bettor. Since the bettor was a fish that was willing to pay off better hands I wasn't as concerned with the players behind me as I was her (probably a mistake).

[ QUOTE ]
then it is pretty obvious to everyone and its unlikely that a Q-hi flush will pay off big bets. so you have reverse implied odds -- you'll lose alot when behind, but not win alot when ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think that the fishy was thinking that hard and I a very sure that she would have payed off big bets with the Q high flush (or even top 2).

[ QUOTE ]
If you're going to call that flop bet because it's "just $1" it's time to move up levels so you'll behave.

[/ QUOTE ]
I always behave! I wasn't calling the bet because it was "just $1" I called it because it was such a small bet compared to the stack sizes. I was willing to gamble it up a little to get involved in a pot with the fishy.

I guess I should explain my thought process a little bit better.

Flop:
I am willing to call fishies bet because I am willing to put my entire stack in the middle against her with the K high flush. It is a small bet so if I can can get good implied odds it is worth calling. I wasn’t extremely happy when OTB called.

Turn:
Bet because a A high flush would raise unless they had a very strong low to go along with it. I didn’t think there was an suited A2 or A3 out there because both of my opponents were aggressive pre-flop and would have raised either of those 2 hands.

Obviously I am very unhappy that the LAG called and the fish folded.

River:
Try to showdown as cheaply as possible.

I think that everyone is right that I probably should have folded on the flop but I don't think that with the fishy betting the call was horrible.

Ribbo · #9 08-08-2005, 08:51 PM

I've already folded on the flop, so i don't get to see the river.

GooperMC · #10 08-08-2005, 10:01 PM

So I after the general consensus that the flop call was fool hearted I am going to scrap that from my playbook, however it brings up another question: What non nut hands will you play short handed?

Obviously you can't nut peddle and obviously you guys don't like drawing at a K high flush so what non nut hands do you play strongly short handed that you don't in a full ring? Top and bottom? Middle / bottom set?

Or are you guys playing non-nut two way hands? I have found it to be very profitable to push good 2 way hands HU because I will have good fold equity and it will be unlikely that I am beat both ways. Are these the types on non-nut hands that you guys are playing?

Clearly my shorthanded game needs some work so I may be posting a lot more short handed questions in the near future. The good news is that my opponents at the $25 tables are horrible so I may even turn a profit while I am learning.