Stupid check?

[Poker_Ink]

Party 1/2 (6 max) 6 handed. MP is very loose and aggressive. No reads on any of the other players. I flat called the turn raise becasue I wanted to check-raise the river. Is this too cute, or a good line?

I am UTG with Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
I raise, MP calls, Button calls, both blinds call.

Flop comes: Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
SB bets, BB calls, I raise, MP calls, button calls, both blinds call.

Turn comes: Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
SB checks, BB checks, I bet, MP raises, button calls, both blinds call, <font color="red"> I flat call </font>

River comes: Js
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="red"> I check
</font>

So, was this dumb, and should I have just pounded the turn and bet the river?

[timprov]

Raise the turn, you've got everybody trapped. With so many people in, villain isn't betting this river without a T or a boat.

Added: calling the turn to checkraise the river is almost always a bad idea, since the bets are worth the same anyway. Get those extra bets in on the turn.

[bobbyi]

On the turn, it looks like at least some people are on draws (really drawing dead, obviously). They aren't going to pay off the river if they miss, so I would rather get money in now. They've already called the second bet, so it is unlikely they will fold for one more. Waiting to c/r river would make more sense if the turn raiser were to your immediate right so that a reraise would face people with two cold. This is the perfect spot to get money into the pot. They are all trapped and won't fold their draws in this giant pot. What better situation are you waiting for on the river? Plus, you risk it checking around which would be a disaster.

You should certainly 3-bet the turn. You have a large pack chasing some draws - they won't fold to one more bet now.

Extract the maximum while you still have callers.

[MisterKing]

[ QUOTE ]
Party 1/2 (6 max) 6 handed. MP is very loose and aggressive. No reads on any of the other players. I flat called the turn raise becasue I wanted to check-raise the river. Is this too cute, or a good line?

I am UTG with Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
I raise, MP calls, Button calls, both blinds call.

Flop comes: Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
SB bets, BB calls, I raise, MP calls, button calls, both blinds call.

Turn comes: Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
SB checks, BB checks, I bet, MP raises, button calls, both blinds call, <font color="red"> I flat call </font>

River comes: Js
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="red"> I check
</font>

So, was this dumb, and should I have just pounded the turn and bet the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

Holy missed bets, batman. First off, the river check is pretty bad, but much much much much much much much worse is flat calling the turn. People like to put money in when they can still draw to a hand, which means on the turn. You had a chance to extract at least 1BB more from each opponent on the turn, since a raise by you would make it one bet back to each, with two bets already invested they will call ~100% of the time. They will not suspect quads, and MP might even cap for you, which would be awesome, of course. Your action here likely cost you between 3 and 6BB.

On the river, the risk of it being checked through is bad, and the risk that it goes bet, fold, fold, fold back to you is even worse. Bet so MP can either raise or call to bring in overcalls. Your check on the river cost you probably 2BB and maybe more. Think about it this way: if you play perfectly for the rest of the next 99 hands, your winrate will be off by a full BB/100 because of missed bets like this.

I'm still learning to value bet and raise more myself, and I promise you, it adds up quite a bit. They never fold, its hard to make a great hand in hold'em, so when you do have one, never stop firing without a very specific scenario that dictates otherwise.

[C-Dog]

Didnt he check the Nuts on the river, closing the action?

[oreogod]

You played the turn and river like Corky would.