KK on the Button - What's the Play?

[Hooked on Fish]

Party Poker $215 Sunday Tournament.

Average Stack: $11,000
Largest Stack: $60,000
My Stack: $22,000
Blinds: 500/1000
280 out of 2,000 or so left - In the money starts at 220

I have KK on the button. I've been moved fairly recently so I don't have reads on anyone at the table.

EMP raises to 4,000, everyone folds to me. I call.

Flop comes 7/4/3 rainblow. EMP bets 4,000, what's my play from here?

Thanks

[Hal 2000]

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker $215 Sunday Tournament.

Average Stack: $11,000
Largest Stack: $60,000
My Stack: $22,000
Blinds: 500/1000
280 out of 2,000 or so left - In the money starts at 220

I have KK on the button. I've been moved fairly recently so I don't have reads on anyone at the table.

EMP raises to 4,000, everyone folds to me. I call.

Flop comes 7/4/3 rainblow. EMP bets 4,000, what's my play from here?

Thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

What was villian's stack?
Why no preflop re-raise?

Given the action, easy push...

[Lloyd]

I'd go ahead and push. If he has an overpair he'll call you and pay you off unless he has AA in which case oh well. If he has a hand like AQ or AJ he'll check fold the turn unless he hits one of his outs, half of which you definitely don't want to see. So it will be tough to trap him for the rest of his chips unless he has a hand he'll go ahead and call a push with anyway.

[Hooked on Fish]

I forgot to state that the villain's stack size was about $23,000.

I did not raise pre-flop because I wanted to see if an Ace hit the flop.

[Lloyd]

[ QUOTE ]
I forgot to state that the villain's stack size was about $23,000.

I did not raise pre-flop because I wanted to see if an Ace hit the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's a horrible reason, IMHO, to not raise pre-flop. Had your answer been I want to trap my opponent then that's a decent answer. But in fear of an Ace - not good.

Ace hits. He bets. You fold. He could have QQ-88 easily. If you don't understand this you're much better off just raising or pushing pre-flop.

[Hooked on Fish]

Lloyd, thanks for the response. If I re-raise pre-flop to, say, $8,000 and villain re-raises me all-in, then what would you do?

Thanks

[Lloyd]

[ QUOTE ]
Lloyd, thanks for the response. If I re-raise pre-flop to, say, $8,000 and villain re-raises me all-in, then what would you do?

Thanks

[/ QUOTE ]
You call. Quickly. There are too many hands that would push there that you are ahead of. If you never fold KK pre-flop you will be far ahead then those times you're caught by AA.

[Hal 2000]

[ QUOTE ]
Lloyd, thanks for the response. If I re-raise pre-flop to, say, $8,000 and villain re-raises me all-in, then what would you do?

Thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're reraising pre-flop, first you're pretty much committing yourself to play for all your chips, so just push. Second, a small re-raise let's him get away easy preflop. Do you want that if he's got 88-JJ, AQ, and might easily call your push?

[Lloyd]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Lloyd, thanks for the response. If I re-raise pre-flop to, say, $8,000 and villain re-raises me all-in, then what would you do?

Thanks

[/ QUOTE ]
I probably agree with pushing pre-flop but not because a normal raise commits us to the pot anyway. I would suggest pushing simply because making a normal raise is typically a very strong hand. Pushing is often a hand like JJ or AK which might get a call from a smaller pair. That's the second point you made which is completely valid but the whole "might as well push because you're pot committed" argument isn't the best one in a situation like this.

If you're reraising pre-flop, first you're pretty much committing yourself to play for all your chips, so just push. Second, a small re-raise let's him get away easy preflop. Do you want that if he's got 88-JJ, AQ, and might easily call your push?

[/ QUOTE ]

[Hal 2000]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Lloyd, thanks for the response. If I re-raise pre-flop to, say, $8,000 and villain re-raises me all-in, then what would you do?

Thanks

[/ QUOTE ]
I probably agree with pushing pre-flop but not because a normal raise commits us to the pot anyway. I would suggest pushing simply because making a normal raise is typically a very strong hand. Pushing is often a hand like JJ or AK which might get a call from a smaller pair. That's the second point you made which is completely valid but the whole "might as well push because you're pot committed" argument isn't the best one in a situation like this.

If you're reraising pre-flop, first you're pretty much committing yourself to play for all your chips, so just push. Second, a small re-raise let's him get away easy preflop. Do you want that if he's got 88-JJ, AQ, and might easily call your push?

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

If it's raised to 4xBB, and he only reraises to 8x, is that considered a "normal raise"?? I'd have thought more like 10x.... then after the flop, unless there's an ace and he makes a great read, how can he not push anyway?