88 against possible continuation bet

nietzreznor · #1 08-05-2005, 03:20 AM

Pokerstars .50/1.00

4-handed

I am SB with 88. I have around $100. CO ($35) open-limps, Button ($31) raises to $4, I call, CO calls.

I have no good reads (though table seems a little loose in general), and will be honest and admit I totally didnt notice stack sizes when I called preflop. (If I had, I probably would have reraised).

Flop ($13): 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I check, CO checks, Button bets $5, I call, CO folds.

Button's bet seems weak, so I'm not ready to give him credit for a J. Question is, should I raise or just call here? Problem with a call is it gives great odds to CO if he has spades, and I'm not sure what to do on turn.

Turn ($22): 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I bet $13, Button raises all-in, I call.

My flop c/c, turn lead left me in an akward position because of the stack sizes. I called because I'm getting like 5:1. Thought about checking turn, but didn't want to give a free card to spade draw or (more likely) missed AK/AQ etc. that would just check behind and c/f river if they don't improve.

c/c flop, lead turn is a line I take with a fair # of hands, and definitely against suspected continuation bets. But I didn't like it much here. Any suggestions on how to play this better?

-Skeme- · #2 08-05-2005, 03:25 AM

A set of Jacks or even an overpair from a weak player will often bet that small, so don't be sure he's on missed overs.

As far as raising and calling, I prefer a call, but I don't particularly like either. I don't really like this move when you're out of position. Anyway, once you lead out and he goes all in, it's not really a question of your move. Why would you call here? Do you really think anything you beat routinely plays like this? The answer is no.

nietzreznor · #3 08-05-2005, 03:41 AM

I understand your concern that I may be behind here, but folding to a continuation bet with a decent middle pair 4-handed just feels to weak to me (i can't speak for this player specifically, but it seems like lots of players will make a weak bet here when they are weak). Being OOP sucks, but the suckiness is greatly reduced here because Button is so short.

So, I don't know, its not like I'm sure I'm ahead on the flop here, I just think there is a pretty reasoable chance. You like c/c better here? Do you lead turn then?

As for my call, meh, don't love it but I really hate folding to an all-in getting 5:1. Don't know that I'm ahead that often, but its probably close, people do some crazy stuff in these games.

-Skeme- · #4 08-05-2005, 03:46 AM

Of course folding to a continuation bet is weak. The problem being is you don't know for sure that it's a continuation bet. Calling it on hopes that it is, then getting played back at heavily is usually an indicator that it is not. Getting in this situation frequently is -EV in my opinion.

UOPokerPlayer · #5 08-05-2005, 04:06 AM

I know you said you didn't see the pf stacks, but reraising this pf is a must. I like $15, and four-hande with these stack sizes I'm probably calling any bet unless CO pushes and Button calls. Flop is a piece of cake if you get enough money in pf here, which you want because you're ahead most of the time. So calling OOP sucks here, but you knew that.

For the way you played it, you gotta lead the flop. Pot size or maybe a little less. Take the lead, and these continuation bets happen a whole lot less often.

Overall, check calling and then leading the turn is pretty bad IMO. With tiny stacks especially, you can pot commit yourself when you dont want to. You also give the option for your opponent to catch a free card, which you did here. Leading the flop is better, you get an idea where you're at, you're betting what is likely the best hand, and making opponents pay to draw. You also take the pot when everyone missed.

In position it's a different story, because if your opponent bets into you, you call, and he checks to you on the turn, you know a lot more about how much he likes his hand and your steals will be more succesful, you also can fold without investing as much as your line on this hand was.

What odds are you getting on the turn? 9 to win 38? I'm trying to work on my math, but i think that's right. I pretty much call with anything there, and you definitely have to call.

fuzzbox · #6 08-05-2005, 06:48 AM

I like a reraise pf - I dont love being oop with a medium pair. Reraise it pf and then bet any flop - if he can stand that heat - then he has you beat, but most ppl fold and you get on with the next hand.

jtr · #7 08-05-2005, 10:25 AM

People are going to abuse me for this, but I think folding preflop is better than just calling the $4 raise, given the stack sizes. Re-raising is clearly an option, although it's not obvious to me that it's a better EV option unless you're getting some respect from the other players and will be likely to take down the pot either immediately or on the flop. Actually I suspect the result of a re-raise will usually be a push from a short stack like this, which would be OK but not hugely favourable for you.

But maybe you agree, as you said you didn't notice the stack sizes.

RiverFenix · #8 08-05-2005, 10:36 AM

Lead the flop for just under pot. You wont make as much money as the possibility of snaping off a cont. bet but it makes the hand much easier by allowing him to define his hand. A PF reraise basically does the same thing for you since his stack is small

djoyce003 · #9 08-05-2005, 11:05 AM

given stack sizes and your choice to play the hand, a reraise preflop is mandatory...you can't call here for set value and you want to play this headsup...raise to fold co out. After that its a fairly routine all in on the flop pretty much no matter what comes against this short stack.

Given the way you played it, what reraises you all in that you are ahead of. You tried the turn donkbet...he's folding if he has nothing....he reraised all in..you are beat, fold and move on.

nietzreznor · #10 08-05-2005, 11:52 AM

Thank for the replies

I agree with everyone, this was an easy reraise preflop, and undoubtedly this caused the rest of the hand to play akwardly. Normally I like c/c flop, lead turn against a possible continuation bet, but the stack sizes left me feeling committed aftr my turn bet even though I prbably only get raised when I'm behind.

Anyways, Button had AJo, and I take it down when I river my two-outer like the lucksack fish that I am [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]