When does a hand become dead?

[JTG51]

Here's some quick background so the question makes sense. A pot is contested heads up. There's much action up unitl the river. The final board is:

K [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] Q [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] Q [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img]

Player 1, who had put in a couple of raises on the flop and turn checks. Player 2, who seems to have AA, bets and player 1 mucks J [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] T [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] face up, thinking he only has a straight or a flush (I'm not sure which) but not realizing that he has a straight flush.

As soon as his cards hit the table someone pointed out his error. The question is, under what conditons could he then call the river bet and take the pot? Does it depend on if his hand touched the other cards in the muck?

Thanks.

[ninthyaga]

In Soaring Eagle (MI) I've heard one floorman say that if you can still clearly distinguish (without a doubt) which cards were yours, then the hand can still be turned face up and remain live - even if they have brushed the muck. In other card rooms I've usually heard that if it touches the much at all, then it's an automatic dead hand.

[Ed Miller]

I dunno... if his clear intent was to muck and then someone told him what he had and decided to call... I think he's out of luck.

[Howard Burroughs]

I've seen it ruled both ways (sometimes in the same room on the same shift).

[SoBeDude]

I think this is different from the normal "is this hand dead" question.

Normally the situation is that he CALLED the final bet and thinks his hand is dead, not realizing he has the winner. This is after he's seen another's hand. If he then mucks his hand face up, he's a winner.

IF HE HAS NOT PAID the final bet and mucks his hand face up, his hand is finished. Under no circumstances should a player be allowed to not pay the final bet, toss his hand, but then realize after he has a winner and pay the bet.

I think any floorperson who would allow his hand to be treated as live here has made a mistake.

-Scott

[Tommy Angelo]

I agree with SoBeDude about this particular situation. With no called bet on the river, a hand tossed toward the muck should be ruled dead, face up or not.

I happen to have the Lucky Chances rulebook on my hard drive, because I happen to have sort of helped a lot in the writing of it(with pride!), and I have permission to use it anywhere for anything, so let's see what it says about dead hands.

(Keep in mind that this rulebook was written with two specific purposes: 1) For the floor staff to study and know. 2) To show to a customer in those very rare cases when the customer says, "I'd like to see that in writing."

(One more thing. I don't necessarily agree with any of these rules. They were decided upon by committee.)


DEAD HANDS


80 Any hand that remains intact is not dead until the dealer has killed it. A hand that has been discarded but has not touched the muck may be retrieved and ruled a live hand, even if the dealer has touched it, provided the act of throwing it away has not induced another player to act.

81 Any cards touching the muck face-down are dead. However, there are two exceptions when an identifiable hand may be retrieved:

a If a player showed his/her hand face-up on the table at the showdown.
b If the hand was protected. (See rule 9)

82 If a player throws, spikes, slams, etc., his/her cards onto the table, any irregularities are the responsibility of that player, and if a card inadvertently touches the muck face down, that hand is dead.

83 If a player drops a card off the table, that card may be declared dead. Players should not pick up cards off the floor. The card(s) will be retrieved by the floorperson and shown to all players before play resumes.

84 Only the owner of a hand may turn his/her own hand over. A hand thrown away by one player and turned face up by another player is dead. The dealer or floorperson may turn a live hand over only at the owner's explicit request.

85 Your hand will be dead if:

a You fold or announce that you are folding when facing a bet or raise.

b You throw your hand away in a forward motion causing another player to act.

c Your hand does not contain the proper number of cards after you have acted on your hand.

d You request "Deal me in" and are not seated in time to act in turn. (If you posted blinds, they are forfeited.)

[JTG51]

Thanks Tommy. I'd check the Foxwoods rule book, but I don't think there is such a thing.

Unless I'm misreading things, It doesn't look like there's a rule that would apply specifically to this situation. Rule 80 says the hand should be live, but think that rule assumes the bet has been called.

In the end, I agree with you and SoBeDude. The players intent was clearly to muck, so the hand should be dead. Fortunately, in this case he was too embarassed to protest. I'm sure it would have been an interesting argument.

[JTG51]

His intent was clearly to muck. Fortunately, when someone told him what he had he didn't try to get his hand back and call. All he could do was say, "Oh SH*T!"

[SoBeDude]

I looks like 85a is close, but if no one else acted yet, then not quite.

Perhaps you should add an 85e that says, "If you toss your cards forward, without calling the outstanding bet, your hand is dead."

-Scott

[HDPM]

The person who said what his cards were was out of line. He should have waited until the hand was over. Then rubbed it in LOL. [img]/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]