Can I fold here ?

[hizo1]

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Why would I raise the turn? I'm behind, and know it,

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calling is the worst option, so fold then.

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Can you please educate me as to why calling is the worst option here?

[@bsolute_luck]

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Why would I raise the turn? I'm behind, and know it,

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calling is the worst option, so fold then.

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Can you please educate me as to why calling is the worst option here?

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if you're behind and you know it, why would you call- i'm assuming Hero knows he's up against AK/Q or trips.

the OP might be speaking out of result-oriented thinking, but seeing as SB is unknown, looking at the hand, i can't be certain that he is behind. i do however think raising is a bad option unless you're willing to fold to a 3-bet.

[MadMat]

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if you're behind and you know it, why would you call- i'm assuming Hero knows he's up against AK/Q or trips.

the OP might be speaking out of result-oriented thinking, but seeing as SB is unknown, looking at the hand, i can't be certain that he is behind. i do however think raising is a bad option unless you're willing to fold to a 3-bet.

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An unknown 3-betting - I put him on a big pair or AK, most probably a big pair

I had 8 outs to beat AA-JJ and 4 outs to chop with AK, with 7BB already in the pot, and at least 1 BB, maybe 2 more from him on the river if I hit I just didn't see a fold here.

Mat

[hizo1]

Ok thinking out loud...

The fact that villain hasn't played a hand in an entire orbit makes you think tightish... on the turn you're behind all of a TAG's three-betting hands except for 99 and maybe KQ.

You have six outs against AA
You have two + .5 x 8 = 6 outs against KK
You have 8 outs against QQ, JJ, TT
You have 1.5 against AK

Now I don't know how to reconcile all the alternatives and outs, but is calling still wrong KNOWING you're behind? I think we can give ourselves 5-6 outs given the options above no? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[hizo1]

hmm... I think I'm liking the fold more and more... even if we do have 5-6 outs the pot is only 6 BBs when it comes to us on the turn.

[@bsolute_luck]

don't look at me. i was simply commenting on the OP's comments that he KNOWS he's behind- to what he never said, but you have to figure, if that is the case, most 3-bet preflop hands you're looking at 2 outs for the Q and that's if you're not already behind to trips, so it's a fold.

that said, my first post said i think he played the hand fine. i think he lost on the river, but i'll make the crying call.

[Aaron W.]

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Ok thinking out loud...

The fact that villain hasn't played a hand in an entire orbit makes you think tightish... on the turn you're behind all of a TAG's three-betting hands except for 99 and maybe KQ.

You have six outs against AA
You have two + .5 x 8 = 6 outs against KK
You have 8 outs against QQ, JJ, TT
You have 1.5 against AK

Now I don't know how to reconcile all the alternatives and outs, but is calling still wrong KNOWING you're behind? I think we can give ourselves 5-6 outs given the options above no? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

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See SSH 109.

[Felipe]

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Why would I raise the turn? I'm behind, and know it,

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calling is the worst option, so fold then.

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Can you please educate me as to why calling is the worst option here?

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take some time to think about it. What does calling accomplish? Raising might induce a worse, or better hand to fold. Calling won't. Folding saves you money. calling won't

Raising allows you to be in the drivers seat and control the action. You can also raise to see how much your opponent likes his hand. Calling can't do these things. Calling is usually for slowplaying or when your last or 2nd-last to act and you can be quite certain you will close the action (say, for example, you were drawing and didn't want to fold or raise)

[hizo1]

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Raising might induce a worse, or better hand to fold. Calling won't. Folding saves you money. calling won't

Calling is usually for slowplaying or when your last or 2nd-last to act and you can be quite certain you will close the action (say, for example, you were drawing and didn't want to fold or raise)

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I *think* we can establish with 95% certainty that we're behind on this turn, and as such we'll probably get three-bet if we raise. We are last to act on the turn and we're drawing to a decent number of outs against most three betting hands except AK. Please correct me as to why calling is still wrong here.

[johnc]

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Raising might induce a worse, or better hand to fold. Calling won't. Folding saves you money. calling won't

Calling is usually for slowplaying or when your last or 2nd-last to act and you can be quite certain you will close the action (say, for example, you were drawing and didn't want to fold or raise)

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I *think* we can establish with 95% certainty that we're behind on this turn, and as such we'll probably get three-bet if we raise. We are last to act on the turn and we're drawing to a decent number of outs against most three betting hands except AK. Please correct me as to why calling is still wrong here.

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I fully agree this is a raise/fold situation. Calling accomplishes nothing. If we're really that sure we're behind (I've never been "95%" sure, ever) then easy fold why stick around a pay him off. Raising ,however IMO is the best option b/c it forces the decision into the other guy's lap. He'll be the thinking about whether he's got you beat - if he decides that yes he's got the winning hand then a 3-bet will let you know that at which point you can muck. You put in 2 bbs for the raise (just like calling the turn and river bets) but you'll have a much more accurate assessment of where you stand plus the chance of him folding (tiny, I know) definately pushes this on into a turn raise.