monotoneeeeeeee

[baronzeus]

Pacific poker 5/10 been at the table for like 6 hands no real reads


Hero has Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] in BB

Preflop:
4 limpers sb completes, hero checks

Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

SB bets, 5 calls

Turn: K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

SB bets, 2 calls

River: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

SB checks, I check, MP bets, call, I fold.



Completely standard? What about raising the turn?

[Entity]

Raise the turn.

[mikeyvegas]

I would have raised the turn here.

[Cumulonimbus]

I like raising the turn. I don't know why you didn't?

[chief444]

Yeah...I don't see how you can't raise the turn here.

[baronzeus]

Just a sanity check. I wasn't really thinking when I called. (considering I was only playing 1 table I have no excuse [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img])

[I am fish]

Personally, I would have raised the flop attempting to make a smaller diamond or a straight draw fold saving you the pot in case another diamond or card that completes a straight hits.

[giant sand]

I would have been inclined to raise the flop as well. Why do some of the more experienced members of the forum prefer to wait until the turn before raising?

[W. Deranged]

Giant Sand and others--

This is a good question that points to a concept most inexperienced players don't immediately understand.

You need to think about what raising at various points in the hand does:

1. If you raise on the flop, you are facing numerous players with two SMALL bets cold. Any player who has any kind of medium/big diamond is probably calling here regardless of whether or not you raise. This is a classic case where you CANNOT protect yourself against any kind of semi-legitimate draw on the flop. Because of the draws, the equity edge you have on the flop is muted. By raising now, you may get checked to on the turn, and will not be able to get another raise in on the turn.

2. If instead, you wait and call the flop in order to raise the turn given it is not a diamond, think about all the good things that happen:

-Now, some medium-big diamonds (say, the J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]) might fold the turn to two BIG bets thinking they are drawing dead. Other one pair hands that have outs to beat your two pair will also likely fold People would rather put in little bets than big ones. (Note, again, though you cannot protect yourself against, say, the bare A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]; they will call all the way and be correct in doing so)

-If the turn is a blank, your equity in the pot rises dramatically because all the drawing players have missed one opportunity to hit their draws. Hence, instead of getting two small bets in on the flop when your edge is pretty small, you get two big bets in on the turn when your edge is bigger. Pretty sweet deal, right?

-If the turn is a diamond you can fold pretty safely in a multiway pot while making the minimum possible investment.

Sound good?

[Padawan Learner]

Everyone is on board with the wait till the turn to raise...and I understand the principle, and don't necessarily dispute its use here but...

1. There is no guarauntee that the BB leads on the turn. So, often we will not only give our opponents a cheap shot at us on the flop, we miss the opportunity to protect our hand on the turn--as well as giving up value by not getting money in the pot with our likely best hand.

2. The pot is small enough that facing the field with 2 is likely to fold medium diamonds, which otherwise might might peel, and then stick around on the turn if they pick up a pair/gutshot to go with their medium flush draw. Also, folding out a Q with no diamonds in their hand would be a good thing.