Determining if Im getting unlucky or outplayed.

[PokerFoo]

After dropping 70BB in a 1/2 limit game earlier I put another 50 on the table.

I had been thinking I was just getting unlucky and the game was good so I should stay. People were limping in with hands like 105s A4s 35s and paying 4 bets pre flop to play them.

I was playing, to the best of my understanding, how SSH directs me to play. Very tight preflop, using the chart, raising and reraising when appropriate. Staying aggressive and not giving any free cards when I have a hand.

Post flop I was attempting to punish the draws by raising and reraising. Although, I have never seen any kind of draw fold. Gutshot, open ended or flush draws always call down no matter how many bets it is to them. Any pair seems to call down trying to catch 2 pair as well. But I continue to bet, raise and reraise as the book directs.

All this seems to do for me is up my losses when one of the 3 or 4 players in the hand catch something on the river. It may be the 4 outer or the open ended draw from the 2 gap unsuited they are holding or bottom and middle pair. It doesnt matter, they are getting there far more often than I am holding up.

After folding for another 20 minutes I found QQ. Middle position raised and I reraised to 3 bets. He called

Flop is A 10 3 rainbow. He checked to me and I bet out. He called.

Turn was my Q. He bet out and I raised. He makes it 4 to go and I call.
River is a brick. He checks, I bet, he raises.

Now I think I'm beat but I figure he is as likely to hold 2 pair as he is the straight so I just call.

He flips up the KJo hand and I decide its time to leave. Ive just dropped about half my second buy-in in one hand.

I dont think I played this hand poorly. I just ran into a bad spot. If anyone thinks I played it poorly please clue me in.

Please help me out. These type hands, combined with the endless run of suckout spots far outweigh the money I win when my hands hold up or get there themselves. I am just not getting it.

Aren't bad players supposed to lose eventually? Who do they lose to? The other bad players? They dont seem to lose to the solid players. They sit down, play random cards from any position for any amount and rake in pot after pot.

How do you guys beat these loose games? The loose players seem to collectively beat up the solid players. The only games I can scrape a BB an hour from are the VERY tight games where I pick up the blinds every 3 or 4 orbits and win a small pot once an hour.

I need some advice, reassurance or something to get me winning instead of giving my money to what I believe to be exceptionally bad players. Or am I the exceptionally bad player? When I sit down I watch the play and often say, well theres a guy who chases to the river with bottom pair hoping to catch 2 pair. He looks like a sucker. Or, theres a guy who just called 4 bets on the turn with a 4 out draw. He should pay me off. Yet these players are raking in the pots and I'm mucking my premium hands to 105o, J3s, and other such holdings at the showdown.

[wheeler]

QQ hand is fine.

A common mistake that people who've just read SSH make is that they get too loose aggressive post-flop. They take on board the advice to play tightly pre-flop, and to play agrressively, but they go too far with their hands postflop (after all you have to protect you hand, charge draws etc. etc.).

It certainly happened to me.

Sure you should be playing aggressively, but you also have to play tightly: don't just keep pounding until you meet resistance. You say you "continue to bet, raise and reraise as the book directs" but many of your opponents at 1/2 actually need a hand to bet, and some of them even need a hand to call. Reraising doesn't punish them, it punishes you. Compare the number of times you're getting beaten on the river, as opposed to the number of times you're already beaten on the flop and turn, and this should give you some idea of whether you're overplaying your hands postflop.

[PokerFoo]

Thanks for the reply.

---
Compare the number of times you're getting beaten on the river, as opposed to the number of times you're already beaten on the flop and turn, and this should give you some idea of whether you're overplaying your hands postflop.
---

Yes, I have been doing this a lot lately. Replaying hands in PT as well. There is no doubt that the majority of the lost hands I have in my sample I am being stung on the river. The vast majority of these are when I have a player dominated or when I'm holding TPTK and they are holding middle pair and catch on 5th street. The middle pair with gutshot draws are a close second, though, also when Im holding usually TPTK or a set against them.

What is REALLY costing me, though, is when a player is loose aggressive and they bet out with thier low flush and straight draws on the flop and turn. Or when Im dominating them and they are betting and calling a raise with TPWK.

I will always raise the turn bet when I am ahead to make them pay too much for the draw with one card to come but they keep comeing anyway. And whats frustrating me is they catch far more often than the odds say they should. This is probably due to the fact that Im not going against one player trying to suckout but 3. I have one made hand and 3 other players collectivly trying to beat it with one card to come. 3 vs 1. Out of the 3 one of them is inevitably catching. One is enough though.

The other players are best described as calling stations. My tight aggressive play probably forces that, however. They call 3 or 4 bets pre flop with little requirements, other than one painted or any 2 suited, then check and call to the river with little requirements. If they hit the flop at all, they are going to the showdown.

There are a few spots where I waste a single bet with AK when the flop misses me but I get away from it without losing anymore after that. I dont feel to bad about betting a ragged flop with AK when its checked to me. Especially after I have raised or re-raised pre-flop. There are few other spots where I get raised on the turn and I call down with TPTK and it turns out they caught 2 pair on the turn holding odd hands like 105o or something. I often see the showdown for free in these spots though because they check the river hoping I will stay aggressive and I check it back.

I review my play And I just don't think I'm the bad player. But the game is scored in money and Im losing it. I am losing it to what would appear to be horrable calls by awful opponants. But they may know something I don't. Thats what I need to find out.

What kind of swings should I expect playing these loose 1/2 limit games? Is 100bb in 300 hands a sign I'm playing poorly or is that falling in a normal range?

[wheeler]

[ QUOTE ]

What kind of swings should I expect playing these loose 1/2 limit games? Is 100bb in 300 hands a sign I'm playing poorly or is that falling in a normal range?

[/ QUOTE ]

100bb falls in the normal range. However, it is cause to re-evaluate your play, as you're doing.

[PokerFoo]

After droppping another 100bb tonight I really am about to give up on this game forever. I have spent hundreds of dollars on books. I have committed thousands of hours learning math concepts and probability situations. I have been playing 8 hours a day for 2 years and I have broken even over the long haul.

Please look at these hands from tonight that I played and help me figure out what I need to do.

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HERO [Qh Qc]
EP calls $1
EP2 calls $1
Hero raises to $2
BB calls $2
EP calls $1
EP2 calls $1
*** FLOP *** [9c 8d 2d]
BB check
EP checks
EP2 checks
Hero bets $1
BB raises to $2
EP folds
EP2 folds
Hero calls $1 -- Im pretty sure he is on a flush draw.
*** TURN *** [9c 8d 2d] [Kc]
Hero bets $2
BB raises to $4
Hero calls $2 --- should I have re-raised? I have been re-raising here but got tired of it because over my sample it has only been costing me extra bets. It doesnt get the draws to fold EVER.
*** RIVER *** [9c 8d 2d Kc] [6d]
Hero checks
LP bets $2
Hero calls $2 --- I probably should have folded and saved the one bet
*** SHOW DOWN ***
LP shos [9d Ad] (a flush, Ace high)
Hero mucks
LP wins the pot ($24.50) with a flush, Ace high

---------------------

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero [Ks Kc]
EP calls $1
MP calls $0.50
Hero raises to $2
EP calls $1
MP calls $1
*** FLOP *** [Ts As 9c]
EP checks
Hero bets $1
EP calls $1
MP calls $1
*** TURN *** [Ts As 9c] [7h]
EP checks
Hero bets $2
EP calls $2
MP folds
*** RIVER *** [Ts As 9c 7h] [6s]
Hero checks
EP bets $2
Hero calls $2 -- I again probably should have saved the 1 bet but these players are as likely to have one small pair here as anything so I decide to see.
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Villan shows [4s 5s] (a flush, Ace high)
Hero mucks
Villan wins the pot ($16.25) with a flush, Ace high

-----------------------------

These are the sutuations I continually run into. If my premium hands cant hold up, how can I make a profit over time? When I do win a pot its 5 bucks and when I lose its huge.

Should I be folding big pairs on the flop if its not a rainbow? The flush or straight or 2 pair gets there more than 90% of the time in my PT sample and I'm only improving about 10% of the time and often lose anyway.

Should I only play suited connectors and stop playing big pairs altogether? Should I be playing for the draws instead of trying to Hold up the best hand? When the tight players raise, and I'm pretty sure they have a bigg pair, should I be calling with any 2 suited and hope for a suited flop to chase down? This situation seems to be the most profitable for my opponants.

[aK13]

How fast are you dropping 100BB is a concern. It sounds like you're doing it within ~500 hand -- even at 6max, this is not variance.

3bet the flop in #1. Turn donking sucks.

#2 how does EP check to you on the flop and river, but act after you on the river?

EDIT: 1/2 is also microlimit, not small stakes. and these losses with premium hands dont occur very frequently (nor do you get them very frequently) -- I'm fairly sure these are not your biggest leaks.

[Onaflag]

So you got your Ks and Qs cracked. So what? It's not the end of the world. Where are the hands where your flush draw has come in like the villians' in this crying post?

I had aces cracked twice in a half hour last night by less than legitimate draws unlike yours. I smiled and told the idiot (same guy both times) he had a very nice hand. Who made money off of those two situations? I did.

Sounds to me like you are very bitter and need a break. If you continue to play in the frame of mind you are in now, you will lose. Get your head together, review your plays in PT and post a legitimate question. No one here will respond favorably to your QQ/KK sob story. We all have it happen several times a night. Smile and move on.

Onaflag.............

[Absalon]

hand #1 - 3bet the flop to let villain know u mean business. i would have check/called this down. this was actually a coinflip postflop and villain wasnt going anywhere so dont worry about ur play.


hand #2 - i would have check/folded on the turn. A lot of players in 1/2 will call a preflop raise with anything as long as they have an ace and they wont fold a pair of aces no matter how bad their kicker is. For that reason, I wouldnt think my kings were any good 3 handed.

[PokerFoo]

I edited the villan wrong in that one.. he must have been the bb. I jut cut and paste the HH and changed the names to protect the innocent.

From my PT sample these are indeed my biggest leaks. AA KK QQ all have negative profit for me over 12000 hands so far. Looking at the HH its nearly always against a flush draw. When I win its a small pot and when I lose its usually on the river after I have put in a ton of bets because I am a favorite.

The biggest winning hand in my sample is k10 and K9 from the bb. Interesting that SSH says these hands arent worth calling a raise with. ( I never do but maybe I should be)

From what you said I have been playing my big pairs correctly. Normally I will 3 bet the flop and turn against the flush draws who will often cap thier draws anyway. In these 2 cases above it would have cost me a whole lot more for this 200 hand session. These players will not fold. I only had about 5 hands I played tonight of any interest. Others were typical. Raise with AK, everyone folds. Raise with AA and bet the flop and villan folds. Call one bet from the button with AXs in a multiway pot, miss the flop and fold. Break even pots. This goes on until I run into a hand thats typical of the ones I posted above.

I have dropped down from 3/6 to 1/2 because of bankroll limitations. I didnt want to play above my bankroll. The farther down I drop in limits the more I am losing. At least in the 3/6 games I could usually put people on a range of hands. In these games I am losing to any 2 cards from any position.

It is not about having big hands cracked its about having them cracked more often than the books, or statistics suggest they should be. I will play tight for 300 hands. Play premium hands and make the dead money pay for staying in but they get there anyway. I am finding I'll involve myself maybe 1 out of 50 (sometimes fewer if there is a lot of raising) hands and lose every time. If I do win its only the blinds or a very small pot. When I lose its a monster pot because I have been doing what everyone suggests. 3 betting the draws on as many rounds as I can. Often they are raising thier own draws anyway. 5th street is completely killing me.

I'm not ranting or complaining about a bad beat as you say but attempting to determine how to become a winning player. Playing by the book looks great in a math equation but at the tables it is not paying off. Im rying to find a play style that will. After tonight I have to either deposit more money or drop to cent tables. Ive dropped more than 600 BB in the last few weeks in 1/2 limit games and the major pots I have lost dont suggest Im playing poorly but Im being outdrawn by hands who are calling to much to stay in.

Should I be 3 betting my own flush draws like my opponants are doing? Should I be calling raises from tight players with any 2 suited and try to beat the big pairs by chasing flushes or 2 pair hands? This seems to be what the players who are raking in the pots are doing.

Onaflag, I'm sorry if my questions are not advanced enough for your standards. I would suggest just not replying to my post instead of looking down your nose and making snobish comments. I didnt post as a sob story. (although I am frustrated to hell) I posted a situation that PT says is my biggest hole. You say it happens to everyone several times a session. Well How do you come back from it? 3 times in 300 hands is enough to put me back 100bb. How do you get back from that when you win small pots, staying even money or slightly above then get whacked in these spots?

[oreogod]

[ QUOTE ]
these losses with premium hands dont occur very frequently (nor do you get them very frequently) -- I'm fairly sure these are not your biggest leaks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope. His biggest leaks are the ones he's not thinking of. Sure u can blame the suck outs...but its the other hands you are playing...in fact, probably every hand u are playing that is causing u to drop money. 200bb in a night, unless u are on a mother of a swing, its has to be player dependant.

I pretty much had the exact same day as u. All good hands lost, getting insane rivers against me. Flopped flushes losign to a rivered fh, three times. But Im not down a lot. Sure every poker experience is unique...but before I knew what I was doing at the table...it was not uncommon to have a couple days like the one u are going through.